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A Drinking Podcast; That Sometimes Talks About Airplanes And Learning To Fly. A Private Pilot, A Commercial Pilot And An Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) As Hosts. They Got Board With The FAR AIM Book Years Ago But Are To Lazy To Change The Podcast Name (or do any show prep whatsoever for that matter). Welcome To The Oddest, Most Irreverent And Controversial Pilot Podcast In America.
FAR AIM | Aviation Reg's | Aeronautical Info | FARAIM
#137 | Navigating the Intricacies of Aviation Communication with Scott Bores
Ever wondered about the intricate dance of communication that takes place in the skies? Strap in tight, because we’re about to embark on an exciting journey through the world of aviation communication with our expert guide, Scott Bores. From examining a mock flight to discussing the complexities and importance of precision, we're taking off on a fascinating flight into the world of cockpit communication.
Our trip starts on the ground as we explore the nuances of taxi instructions and the integral role of transponders for a Class Bravo airport. Scott unravels the layers of precision required and pushes us to consider how updates to the system could make it more efficient for pilots. We then transition into the adrenaline-pumping takeoff, where we learn the specifics of switching frequencies, the phraseology of the tower controller, and the significant implications of the phrase 'line up and wait.'
As we soar through the skies, we engage in thought-provoking discussions on how to communicate effectively with air traffic controllers and other pilots. We delve into the critical nature of calling out aircraft positions, the different scenarios of calling out left or right base in a mock flight, and the impact of aircraft speed profiles on the flight pattern. This is not just an episode; it's an enlightening journey that promises invaluable insights for anyone interested in aviation communication. So, fasten your seatbelts, folks, and prepare for a thrilling ride through the skies!
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Welcome to the Farrain Podcast. This week we are doing a glorious flight Telecommunications, you should say, on the radio type episode. We're going to do a mock flight to test not only Scott Boris's skills on radio communication. My skills as an air traffic controller which I am not are going to be tested. It should be extra bad. Leo correct us, because he kind of knows. He knows what he's doing on the pilot side and pretty much will know that what I'm saying is not what an air traffic controller would say, but we're going to do it anyway. Hopefully you learned something from this. Yeah, let's roll right into it. Mr Boris, you get your Detroit map up there.
Speaker 3:Of the airport yeah. Airport diagram yeah, diagram.
Speaker 1:Taxiways and stuff. You see the east side, that general aviation.
Speaker 3:Well, I see, yes, there are two spots of general aviation.
Speaker 1:But I see this, I see the it's the one, the east, the east side, on the right side of the diagram there.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:If you're following along, like, not don't do this if you're driving, but if you're at home, board and drinking or something you hold up, follow along with us, okay. So your tail number, the new official tail number of the foreign podcast.
Speaker 3:So do you want me to call?
Speaker 1:you? What type of airplane are we doing this in? First of all, you got to choose.
Speaker 3:Wow, I mean I says to one chip, because that's what I got.
Speaker 1:Oh, let's do something cooler.
Speaker 2:Well, let's do something different, because the 150, it's always bothered me. A lot of the Cessna's do this. They don't have a very easy and I don't know if it's just because society is dictated that we don't say these. But like a 150, commuter, nobody calls up commuter, nobody calls up an assassin 206 as a station error. Nobody does that. It's unfortunate, but I tend to think precision matters. So I would prefer to use an airplane like you could say a King Air, you could say a Bonanza, you could say a Baron, you could do one of those, a Pilatus.
Speaker 3:I can't fly any of those, yeah.
Speaker 2:I just want to mix it up.
Speaker 1:We got a new tail number. It's like I just don't want to throw this brand new tail number. We registered with.
Speaker 2:Skyhawk, at least Do whatever you want, just something that we can say, because you want a Skymaster, what are you? Going to say Cessna 150?. Yeah, if you want to say Cessna 150 every time, or at least till we get the dialogue going, that's fine.
Speaker 3:What if I just said 150?, c150.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, that's fine. That's just kind of weird. That's a kind of that is again it's just weird.
Speaker 3:You don't want to fly, Lee?
Speaker 2:I don't want to. Well, I have no problem with a 150, other than nobody. I hear ATC do this with flight following. All the time. People call up in a 150 and they just say Cessna, in this case Cessna 151, whiskey, whiskey, and the controller is going to be like, say, type aircraft at some point in the dialogue establishing you know, the flight following and the data tag and all this stuff and they have to go back. But if you call up Skyhawk 151 Whiskey, whiskey, the dude knows it's a 172. It's a C172. You know what I mean. That is the. That's what I'm getting at.
Speaker 1:We do a Baron.
Speaker 2:It's got fly a Baron this time you want to fly a Baron this time we're going to spend so much time on the ground taxing before we get off the air.
Speaker 1:This is how all those episodes go.
Speaker 3:We need something a little quicker to get you back over to PCW. I don't even know how to fly a Baron.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to crash HGC doesn't know that.
Speaker 2:Okay, scott, is there anything that you would entertain saying instead of Cessna 150?
Speaker 1:Or if you just say Cessna 150, that's fine, that'll load. Scott, we're changing the model and the tail number. Call sign.
Speaker 2:Speedbird Aviation mic says use speedbird as the call. Speedbird yeah, speedbird 151 Whiskey, whiskey Heavy.
Speaker 1:Say heavy at the end too, All right, okay, well, this is going great.
Speaker 2:Scott, whatever, all right, fine, we'll use.
Speaker 1:Baron.
Speaker 3:We'll use Baron.
Speaker 1:We got to use the call sign. I paid $10 for it, so yeah.
Speaker 2:Per year. Is it per year? It's per year to hold it, oh man.
Speaker 1:We have it on hold now so we can use it on the show as the official call sign now and not worry about accidentally saying somebody else is playing. We shouldn't be.
Speaker 2:All right, Fire away guys.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:Or Scott, I guess.
Speaker 3:Here I go Detroit ground.
Speaker 2:Already wrong. It's a metro ground.
Speaker 3:Oh, who cares? They know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:It says that right on the chart.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:Well, they're going to correct you, but that's okay.
Speaker 3:Metro ground Baron 151.
Speaker 1:Whiskey Whiskey Rob 151 Whiskey Whiskey Metro Ground.
Speaker 3:Go ahead 151 Whiskey Whiskey. Requesting taxi for departure to the east 151 Whiskey, whiskey.
Speaker 1:You have the current ATIS.
Speaker 3:Yep, this is very accurate. Of what?
Speaker 2:would happen.
Speaker 3:What is the current ATIS? I don't even know what to find.
Speaker 1:the current ATIS you know it just makes up, Mom. Unless you tune in on radio or have floor flight up, it's not going to be able to easily tell that it's one of the titles Tyler's saying call clearance, which he's correct, but so go into that, Leigh, let's break that down.
Speaker 2:So typically in a class Bravo, I mean, you start with clearance because you need clearance into the class Bravo it's kind of the best way to describe it. So you'd get your ATIS just like normal. And for guys who are just private pilots and they don't have an instrument, it's kind of weird that you have to call clearance even though you didn't file IFR. And a lot of times it's just a formality. But still, at a class Bravo airport and I would recommend it to class Charlie, even though you don't have to At a class Charlie, class Bravo I would recommend. Well, at a class Bravo, I would. At a class Charlie, I would recommend Class Bravo. You want to get your ATIS, call clearance and they'll give them Most of the stuff that Scott just said. So it'd be fine. I mean, you need to get the ATIS code, which you're getting at now, and then they would hand you off to give you clearance and then they'd hand you off to ground and then you'd basically start your whole spiel back over again, basically where you started.
Speaker 1:Okay, in.
Speaker 2:Tyler St. He thought it was required in Charlie as well. I don't know. I've done a lot of flying class Charlie VFR. Very little in the class Bravo VFR. Class Charlie, I never did. I don't think it's required. I don't have any resources here to look it up. I wouldn't think it would be. So, Tyler, if you want to do that Because class.
Speaker 3:You don't need a clearance from Charlie, do you?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, so if you look at like, if you're coming into or traversing a class Charlie air space, you'll need to hear your call sign, right? So if you were to think of it in that context, think of it outbound, it's kind of the same deal as long as you hear your call sign back. It's kind of assumed that, like, you're cleared into where class Bravo is the only one where you need to hear the word. You're cleared into the class Bravo or cleared through whatever.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's the way I look at it. He's looking at it, tyler's looking for it now. So maybe that'll give us some definitive proof. But I'm, and I, like I said, I do recommend it because then it just keeps everything all parallel and concise and you don't need to remember oh, I'm in class Bravo, I do it this way in class Charlie, I do it this way. I do recommend doing it that way and keeping treating them uniformly. But Sue Sixier says D and C are the same, only B requires specific clearance. Oh, and he said that's Ian.
Speaker 2:So Tyler keep looking it up, ian said. Ian said I'm right, so you better keep looking it up, I'm just joking. I'm sure it's, I'm sure I'm. I would think that's right.
Speaker 1:Ian's in the chat, so it's finally somebody in our periphery.
Speaker 2:But now he's going to tell us all the stuff that we shouldn't really be saying.
Speaker 1:So oh, I'm sure I didn't even know that about clearance and I'm ATC, that's what I'm just going with it. 151, whiskey Whiskey. Please verify, verify, you have information.
Speaker 3:Whiskey 151 Whiskey Whiskey has information Whiskey.
Speaker 2:So here's the thing. So right there, here's a pro tip. Say you call up with Alright, let's say you call up with the letter right before the current one and they want you to have the current one, and you say, okay, I've picked her. And they say, let us know when you have information with me, like, oh yeah, whiskey's what we got. I can't read my own handwriting. That's what I always do it doesn't change. Just tell them you got what they said and tell them, why In theory, it could change In theory it could change there's crazy weather coming in like a front's rolling through.
Speaker 2:If it's rolling through, you can see that out the window and you should know. But most of the time you're on the right one. I mean, would you get in an hour before you needed it? Chances are you didn't do that. Chances are you don't have an hour old weather that you're calling them with.
Speaker 1:But Hollywood did that to me once while I was banter towing, and they didn't make me listen to it. They said like 4-3, mike, change the whatever's now current. And then there's like nothing relevance changed, you're fine, or something along those lines.
Speaker 2:So you call up with the wrong one. They said, oh, this is current, it had just changed.
Speaker 2:Right, and that's the way they should. But some places are kind of like crazy about it. I know Charlotte always used to be like you know, let us know when you have it, like in certain controllers, that's their thing, like that's one of their shtick, they want you to have the current thing. And it's like I just landed 40 minutes ago. I see what it is now. It's not any different. You know, if all you change was the wind went from gusting to 10 instead of gusting to 12. Like, what do I care? But can it matter? Absolutely, it's always better to be on the other side, but unless you know, if there's not a good reason, I don't know. It doesn't make a mountain out of a molehill, is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Okay, 151, whiskey, whiskey, taxi 2, niner Wright. Hold short Niner Wright via taxiway. Victor 1, victor, papa, papa, Papa, juliet, juliet 8.
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 2:I'm actually going to need those taxi instructions too. I didn't know you were going to give me all everything.
Speaker 1:How would they usually do it?
Speaker 2:Well, normally they'd give you to the first crossing the first. Did you say cross nine left or taxi nine right? You said the same one twice. So that was the first thing that threw me. You're going to taxi to nine right cross nine left. You're going to taxi via Papa 5, papa would you say Victor.
Speaker 1:I said S5S Victor 1, victor.
Speaker 2:S5S. What the hell, when are you?
Speaker 1:S5 is the first one to get out of that little general aviation area, s5 on the east end. Then why, would you?
Speaker 2:Oh, I don't even know what that is. There Signature, the only one I know of is actually up way up in the northeast. That's why I didn't know where you were starting either, oh really. By US customs. Well, this part sucks. Okay, let's say so, as long as everybody knows where we are. There's two general aviation areas. You're on the far, you're on the east east.
Speaker 1:This is Detroit metro.
Speaker 2:by the way, if anybody so there's one on the east, like straight east, and then there is one up in the like pretty much the north, like almost north central. That's where I've always gone. I don't even know what is over there in that east one you're talking about, but just I guess now that we know, and now also everybody else knows, why don't we I'm trying to get a freaking- ink to come out of this damn pen. I know All right what you got, all right let's take this quick top.
Speaker 1:Let me duck, quack out the edit. So I was saying S5 to S. Well, I guess it'd be S7, then V1V to P to PP to P to J to J. Give them to nine, or right there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, nine or right.
Speaker 1:You said you want to take off to the east right.
Speaker 3:Nine or right? Yep, yeah, we're down south there.
Speaker 1:Okay, going east, yeah, so you're talking about crossing. I didn't want to take you on S1 or S or S6 or any of that, because it's all, it's Detroit, it's all potholes. I got to kind of write route you around the airport around the potholes Detroit has a lot of potholes Scott.
Speaker 3:Can't they just like text me like a highlighted route to take? Wouldn't that be more efficient?
Speaker 1:How would they do that, lay, I don't know. You know the route that I'm trying to give them a taxi. Let's say, hypothetically, they had to give them that route. How would they tell them? On that initial call when he's calling from general aviation area.
Speaker 2:All right, sierra five, sierra. I would go Sierra six, cross, it'd be cross three right, whiskey, juliet, juliet, seven. So I'm going to write that down, as I just said Sierra five, sierra. So Sierra north. Okay, if you guys are following me, sierra six, cross. And so, like if you have a scratch pad, I just do an X typically for a cross three right, if you have a knee board or if you're using a scratch pad function for flight or if you have an FMS that has a scratch pad on it. Sierra five, sierra, sierra six, cross, three, right. Then we're going to go whiskey south, and sometimes they'll say whiskey south, but that normally confuses the shit out of me. So whiskey south, and then we're going to pick up Juliet, juliet, eight. So, like I had sit, you had nine steps in years, I have six in mind, but I was trying to avoid the potholes.
Speaker 1:This is, seems, who cares. Who cares about that bearing?
Speaker 2:You're so ridiculous like yeah, it's, it's the class problem. We're also not controllers, so they sometimes will omit things that are like like easy to see, we don't. They can store, hand things and be like okay, they're gonna figure it out. I'm not gonna say every little step, if I can just say taxi to a. Um, well, this case we do have to cross runway, so that makes it kind of looted. But uh, taxi to runway nine or right via Sierra or Sierra six, whiskey juliet, juliet eight, and get to Sierra or get to Sierra six, however you want. So that already omits two taxiways. That we were saying this just seems like such an antiquated system to me Like if you know what is right now.
Speaker 3:I understand that, but, like if you, would have told me to drive to your house. You would just give me your address. You wouldn't tell me okay, you're gonna turn onto both road and then you're gonna turn on the bogart road, then you're gonna turn on to Our rye beach road and then you're gonna turn on to route two and then you're gonna you wouldn't help, like that's what people did like 25 years ago. Nobody's doing that anymore.
Speaker 1:Why would you swipe, if you swipe up, if you swipe up on the apple Maps, it'll actually give you direction.
Speaker 3:I realize it will, but nobody does that.
Speaker 1:My wife does it. That's how I know it works like that and I like. I see the screen, I have no idea what to do with it. I'm like where's the map right?
Speaker 3:people ask me, like when I like, if I go to pick something up or something, or like go somewhere. Oh, what route did you take in here? I? I followed the blue line. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I drove from south florida to northern ohio. Right like my dad's like did you take that route, or that. I'm like I have no idea.
Speaker 3:It blows my mind that they're still giving like.
Speaker 1:Follow the blue line, stop for gas, listen to podcasts. No idea where I was exactly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, where are you at? I don't know. I'm on. I'm on a road. What road? I don't, I don't know. I'm no idea what's staying, even in.
Speaker 1:Okay, so anyway, but isn't this is our taxi instructions?
Speaker 3:Well, I refuse to. I refuse to taxi. We're gonna do another episode when they figure out.
Speaker 1:When they figure out how to do it better. Scott, we will make another episode update.
Speaker 2:And Scott, if you have great audience, I mean. I mean they could okay on point suggestions.
Speaker 1:He's gonna talk about AI and computers. No.
Speaker 2:They do have a guys, they do have simplified taxi routes, they do have things like that. Here we are making up a scenario and we're playing atc, guessing what they would say. They might not say hardly any of this. They may pair this down to Half of what we are trying to do. What if they just say get there via whiskey Juliet Juliet 8. Anybody can anybody. Of course, we have to cross the runway and that's the only reason that in this scenario that we have to add Three more items. If there wasn't a runway there, it could be get to whiskey However you want and taxi whiskey Juliet Juliet 8 to 9, right?
Speaker 1:151 whiskey, whiskey, whiskey. Cleared across 2, 1, 3 taxi to niner.
Speaker 3:Right the Whiskey Juliet, juliet 8, hold short niner right one whiskey, whiskey cleared 3, 2, 1 whiskey Juliet Juliet 8, niner right Something like that. I don't know close enough share.
Speaker 1:I'm atc, I don't.
Speaker 2:He probably didn't even listen to your response. He's gonna watch you as you taxi around now one thing, this is a class bravo.
Speaker 2:So you need to have your altitude, your transponder on for this, just so everybody knows, because they have ground asd ex, asdx, I care, asd ex, I think and this is a basically ground surveillance radar. They will, they're your transponder, they will watch you on a radar scope from your transponder, not just visually out the window, they will watch you on a radar scope basically as you taxi around on the ground. So you need to have your transponder on while you, before you move on a in a At a class bravo. Airport.
Speaker 1:So he technically should have. I should have issued him a transponder code then when he first called.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, because he would be flying in a class bravo. So yeah, that's true too. Okay, I'm not a controller either, I mean I miss certainly see the flaws in this scenario here. None of us are controllers.
Speaker 1:We all want to make sure that's very clear. Okay trying to make.
Speaker 2:I think that is abundantly clear at this point educational as possible.
Speaker 1:Without a member of the air traffic controller community as a guest, we get an ATC. We'll probably do an episode Just howling him with questions, but if we get regular, it'd be fun to do this with someone who's actually atc.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Um yeah, we can make that happen sometime. Okay, god, more people to laugh at us, I suppose.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, so we got to the runway, did we Scott what?
Speaker 1:are you doing?
Speaker 2:I mean.
Speaker 1:I'm not seeing Scott move on on my radar attack here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm, I moved.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay.
Speaker 3:I'm rolling, I'm there, I'm at nine.
Speaker 2:He's at nine right. You're at holding short nine, right. Okay, so like, let's say, you've done all that for some other reason, no airplane lands on top of you and you didn't have a runway incursion or taxiway incursion. No issues, you get holding short of nine right at you, haven't?
Speaker 1:you haven't been given a phone number to call.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that too. So you're holding short of nine, right, scott? Yeah, and what it is so hard. And this is why scenario based training is effective, because it makes you think A little bit more into the scenario than you ordinarily would. You were talking on ground, and so when you get to the runway, what do you need to do?
Speaker 3:Uh hold Short, yeah, hold short of the runway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but but if you're talking on ground, what do you need to do? No, with your radios.
Speaker 3:I made it to the runway.
Speaker 2:Okay, tell who controllers.
Speaker 1:Switch frequencies right switch without that challenge.
Speaker 3:Don't you wait till they tell you to yes, yes, no to switch. Now if, when you get to the runway, you just switch to tower?
Speaker 2:I'd be switched before I got to the runway. I'm not waiting for them, I want to be listening what's going on sooner and unless there's an obvious reason that I may need to hold short of a taxiway, like if and we're drawing too much out of this diagram, I'm kind of seeing maybe the the Errors of the thought process you're doing it this way, but this diagram is not show the potholes of Detroit.
Speaker 2:Well, if you're on julia there's a multiple taxiways that parallel Um that could get you to nine right, and unless there's an obvious reason that I should maybe not keep monitoring ground basically till the last minute, I'm going to switch over to tower and start getting a feel for who's getting cleared to land, what runway they're getting cleared on and kind of where my sequence is, because I have other considerations. I need to worry about getting the other engines started, things like that, and getting checklist done. So I'm I want to be much more in tune with the big picture of what's going on at Detroit metro, not just Like I don't know. I need, I need a wider feelers than just what ground can give me. So I tend to, and maybe I push it a little bit too early and get on tower Um Too early.
Speaker 2:Maybe I missed something and maybe I've pissed controllers off in the past. I don't think so, but maybe it happens. But yeah, I, they don't. I don't wait for them to tell me to switch Some, and occasionally they will tell me to switch way before I would. Then I would normally, obviously, if they tell me to early, way early, I do you know. But if I don't hear anything Within, like if I'm taxiing on a parallel runway, if you can picture this, and I'm probably 2,000 feet prior to the end of the runway. I'm hard, I'm already switched for sure. So 2,000 feet prior to the end of the runway if I'm on a parallel taxiway.
Speaker 1:If all there is is a taxiway going to the end and you're not crossing any, the ground has written you off. Anyway, he's headed in that direction on that taxiway. Yeah he is not grounds, he's not your problem anymore. That's how I'm assuming they look at it as. Again, make this very clear I'm not an air traffic controller, I'm just playing one on tv, on on podcast.
Speaker 2:Um, okay, so, uh, so.
Speaker 3:I'm a tower controller sitting here wondering what this baron's doing. And I go Metro tower 151 whiskey, whiskey 151 whiskey whiskey metro tower go ahead 151 whiskey whiskey holding short nine right waiting for clearance, waiting for takeoff clearance 151 whiskey, whiskey cleared Runway and niner right lineup and weight 151 whiskey. Whiskey niner right lineup and weight.
Speaker 1:So you line up and you get. First time I've heard this was in the Bahamas, was before the us that adopted it and I thought it was just island talk. You know slang. And then now, if sun, we're all using it.
Speaker 3:What's line up and wait mean you get on the runway and just sit there, uh-huh.
Speaker 2:I got traffic coming in on three right yeah we used so now it's ikeo's phraseology is line up and wait. We used to say position hold Yep, and now it's lined up and wait 151 whiskey.
Speaker 1:Whiskey clear for takeoff 151 whiskey.
Speaker 3:Whiskey clear for takeoff.
Speaker 1:All right, you're throwing those baron throttles up.
Speaker 3:Oh man, I don't know how to play a twin. I freak out as long as both engines keep going.
Speaker 1:It's a single, you're good. It's a new baron, you're funny.
Speaker 3:I realize I'm underqualified, so I chop the power and I take the closest taxiway and I jump out of the plane and run as fast as I can yeah away from the airport.
Speaker 1:That's gonna draw too much attention. You just make it back to pcw, you'll be fine.
Speaker 2:So we've taken off, we take off.
Speaker 3:Uneventful Yep. I had an. East, now Climbing right up, climb up to a thousand feet, a GL Soon. As you get out of the class, bravo, you shut the radios off.
Speaker 2:Just shut them off right after takeoff dude, why wait so long?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:All right, so who would the next? What would the next thing be, though, guys? If you know, he just takes off. The next radio calls from who?
Speaker 1:from the tower, probably, as. I see him approaching the the edge of the Bravo airspace, I'd probably make some sort of call.
Speaker 2:No, no, probably a lot of 500 feet contact departure.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm tower, okay, 151 whiskey, whiskey, contact tower.
Speaker 3:Blah, blah, blah contact departure Good good. Contact departure good at 151 whiskey, whiskey blah blah.
Speaker 1:Over the departure you can only blah, blah, blah the frequency. That's what I did I blah, blah, blah the frequency. Okay, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3:You would just say that I just said the frequency. I don't need to say departure. If I say the frequency correctly, they don't know.
Speaker 2:I Would just say over to departure. I wouldn't even repeat the frequency, I just say like, in theory, you'd have your con, your everything set up correctly already in your calm one, ground and tower on your Standby and number two you'd have departure. So it's always there to just feed in. That's where it is, so you and so calm one is ground, ground and tower.
Speaker 2:On number two is gonna be clearance and departure. That should be your typical setup. That's gonna be kind of your primary order. You're probably hopefully not gonna need clearance and then you just remember in standby is gonna be your departure and then once you switch to tower Whether they've told you to or you've just done on your own volition you've put tower and active on number one, put Departure in standby on number one. So that way when they say over to departure, you don't have to repeat a frequency, just hope that it's right, but be confident in your you know, make sure that you know that it's right I guess is the thing and then just yeah, to switch it, say over departure, see it and flip it.
Speaker 1:Okay, so now I'm I'm departure now.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:Metro departure 151 whiskey whiskey 151 whiskey. Whiskey go ahead. 151 whiskey whiskey Departing Metro to the east, to PCW.
Speaker 2:They already know all that cuz. It's class brav when you told the, you told that to clearance, clearance that we skipped cuz I didn't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we kind of skipped well, and it's hard to get that's again. That's why scenario-based training is effective, because it uncovers these things. But it is very hard to get in the mindset like like. Even for me, like via far and a class brav, I've done like twice ever in my life and may never do it again. But it it's hard to get in the zone like the chair flying, like it real, make sure it's real and that's how you kind of drop the ball sometimes is the scenario, because scenario training is is harder to get your mind wrapped around.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh.
Speaker 2:So he, he wanted to give you all that stuff which would have been for them. He's making a call like he was contacting Cleveland, like Detroit approach to trade departure, as though he was doing an initial call up for flight following. Not all bad, just, they already know everything. So all you're gonna say on, they've told you kind of departure, you're getting this, this chain of custody, if you will right. So all you're gonna say Detroit departure, baron 151 whiskey, whiskey 1.2, meaning 1200, climbing, whatever 3500, because they already know everything else. So tell them so they can cry, because they have to radar identify you. They have to radar identify you. So they will call out to you you know your radar contact altitude indicates whatever. And yeah, I mean, that's pretty much it. So they so giving them the altitude you're leaving. If you don't tell them that, they're just gonna ask you say altitude leaving. So you just kind of cut them to the chase. So you have one whiskey.
Speaker 1:Whiskey say altitude leaving.
Speaker 3:Leaving 500 for 1000 Hgl.
Speaker 2:I managed a also one thousand second. I don't know what I just said.
Speaker 3:Hgl, because I don't know what the altitude is there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, about the same as here 151.
Speaker 1:Whiskey. Whiskey had 090. They give you the clearance.
Speaker 2:They probably just say maintain via far and course, for the most part okay. Or they'd say fly run. The departure tower Would have said fly runway, heading clear for takeoff nine or right it? Just a pet like we're just kind of making up stuff. But they obviously need to positively control you with such a busier space.
Speaker 2:Yeah so they probably did. They probably told you to maintain runway heading and and then after takeoff, when you go over to departure, radar controlled now, they'll probably give you a couple simple headings for a little bit until you're outside the lateral boundaries of the class Bravo, which I don't want to pull that chart up, I don't really care, but I mean, I get, I care, but I don't want to do that much work. Once you're out of lateral boundaries They'll just say via far on course, or maintain via far on course, or proceed on course.
Speaker 1:I guess this one five, one whiskey, whiskey. Continue runway heading. Maintain VFR, on course.
Speaker 3:One, five, one whiskey. Whiskey VFR, on course.
Speaker 1:All right Now that now I probably make the call when I see Scott leaving the the circle right. That big wedding cake.
Speaker 2:Well, it just depends they may. They, the Detroit, will probably want to hand you like, cut you loose as much as you can. But they may also ask you workload permitting. Right, that you know? Do you want to Continue the flight following? You know what do you want to do. Or if they're too busy, they'll say squawk via far for good or flight. Well, they say radar service terminated, squawk via far, frequency change approved.
Speaker 1:If they're busy, okay, we're busy, so here so.
Speaker 2:They're probably gonna cut you loose, but they've always been so as busy as they are. They've always been super accommodating to me when I've gone in there. Vfr Back on day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 151 whiskey, whiskey. Radar service terminated squawk via. Far Good day. I say right, yeah, there's an extra thing you said in there.
Speaker 3:I think we're gonna change approved.
Speaker 1:Frequency change approved.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah 151 whiskey, whiskey, good day.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, that's simple enough. I typically say via far and advisories is what I say, which is like nowhere near correct. But I just simplify it via far and advice, so squawk via far and Freakin change approved. I just say via far and advisory frequency Because I guess that is a long thing.
Speaker 3:Can I just say good day. Like they know what it means.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely yeah. There's no real requirement for you to say anything Because, remember, you're going from, you're going from Critical airspace to non-critical. You're going, you know, I mean from them controlling you to them, like I don't care anymore. You know I'm washing my hands of you, like then things don't need to be specific. But if you're entering the airspace, you want to be a lot more on it and basically verb as close to verbatim, as like what is a reasonable which. That experience comes with time, what you need to repeat back and what you don't. Um, that would be a lot more critical.
Speaker 2:If you're coming into the airspace, you know Getting getting in the flow, doing what they want and making sure you're on the same page. When you're exiting the airspace and You've given there, like there's no indication that you're going to be any more of a headache all the information you've given them from from startup, is that you're Leaving the airspace in the most efficient manner possible. The direction, the altitude, altitude where you're going, and all those things are basically congruent with each other. They were the quicker you get out, the better, and then you don't need the further away from the premier report, the less specific you need to be. I think it's the best, probably wait for me. To sum it up, I.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yeah. That concludes my role of AirTrap Controller. I got that Great job Practically student pilot out of my airspace, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm going to start going. If I was really doing it, I would have told them I was a student right away.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, all right, we got to wait. Lee's gone now we have no idea we're talking about anymore. Yeah.
Speaker 3:We are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so okay, lee's back. We got our CFI back here to tell us what we're doing wrong going back into Portland.
Speaker 2:Oh, we're continuing the flight. I thought we were done milk jugging it up. Oh no, I didn't know that.
Speaker 3:Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1:We're going to continue this flight to PCW because that's some of the most. We did a flight I forget where it was, it was like I think it was Kelly's Island to Burke Lakefront and it took us 45 minutes to get off of Kelly's. So I'm like this is going to be interesting going back into a uncontrolled airport, because this is our specialty. All three of us have some opinions on this.
Speaker 2:Well, I've made some missteps here in what should be like my base repertoire. Now, normally, if I'm always IFR, well, not normally I'm 99.9% of the time IFR. So, going VFR to class Bravo, tyler raised a good point in the chat Like, yeah, you need to call clearance first at a class Bravo. If we put to bed at a class Charlie, it's not necessarily required, but you need to get your ATIS because they'll want you to call clearance. Are you breaking a regulation or kind of an FAR or, I'm sorry, something in the aim? If you don't, not necessarily just because it's on the ATIS. People omit the ATIS and all kinds of stuff all the time and they may say contact. They'll just tell you you contact ground. They'll just tell you, hey, do you talk clearance? No, well, contact clearance. So it's not the end of the world. But yeah, it pays dividends. I think the point here is it pays dividends. Have your ATIS stuff in line. So you know, maybe ground's not even on the normal frequency, maybe ground's not end out, maybe you're on 2165 versus 21.9 because ground is out, or maybe ground and tower are combined.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of reasons, innumerable reasons really, to make sure you listen to ATIS first, get the code, you sound professional, signature, ready to taxi with golf, super easy. And then like whatever that being signatures, where you are, you're telling them what you're ready to do taxi and you have the ATIS information, golf. That tells them all they need to know. And you don't sound like an idiot either, you sound professional. Now, downside of that and I think I've said this before you sound professional out of the gate. They tend to treat you that way as well, so they can go give the taxi instructions you initially did, which is like CR5, cr7, cr1, Victor, papa, papa, papa, juliet, juliet, eight. And I may have missed something else because my pen wasn't working, but it's like, yeah, can I get progressive taxi instructions then? Because that sucks. What you just read to me sucks.
Speaker 2:So most of the time I would say it's better to sound professional. But that is an unintended consequence. Sometimes is that they treat you like one, two, and it catches me off guard too sometimes. I had it one time happen in Atlanta. They gave me some. I sounded what I thought was super professional. They gave me some tax instructions. I'm like, yeah, I messed it up like three times before I got it right and I halfway know what I'm doing. That's just the way it is. They give you a route, a different direction than what you thought. You start, you turn right instead of left, out of the main like area. It's like I'm already like lost, you know, so so you're better off sounding like an idiot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I knew you'd go there.
Speaker 3:Um yeah but I mean like I.
Speaker 2:Just my ego is too big. I want to sound when I can. I want to sound as professional as I can. Uh, that's, that's just. That's just me, that's just what I want.
Speaker 1:Um, and it can bite you, but in this case it's live eight is recordings from Papa Boris. I support that. We need to create an eight is with your dad's voice, as just have like oh, could you imagine, yeah, could you imagine.
Speaker 3:Even says, when I dropped them off Friday evening Amen, my dad, we're, we're hanging out Friday night, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, um, so we're flying PCW. Still, I think we've somewhat gotten there. It's a Baron, so we're kind of approaching PCW from the West now aren't we Yep From the North Northwest Cause I mean, you got a twin. You. You took the B B lined it over the lake there. Why? Why go around when you're in a twin?
Speaker 3:Yeah, let's hear, unless you're overloaded.
Speaker 1:So what's that? How do you approach that airport? Let's get more into where you're at in the pattern. I think that makes more sense when it's not tower. It's kind of I don't know. Maybe it's self-explanatory, maybe not. You can answer it in the in the chat and on pilot ground After you listen to this in the podcast feed. But I feel like it's way more important in the VFR to say where you are, like when's you're flying in. You know how are you. How are you going to approach this? Coming into PCW and the Baron now.
Speaker 3:Uh, well, about 10 miles out, I'm going to say a Portland traffic. Uh, one whiskey, whiskey, baron. One whiskey, whiskey is 10 to the.
Speaker 2:Baron 151 whiskey, whiskey.
Speaker 3:Always on the initial call, getting the habit on the initial call you hack, not only when you're talking to ATC, not when you're talking to traffic.
Speaker 2:No, because here's the problem.
Speaker 1:If you don't do it, then on CTAS you're not going to do it when you do ATC as well.
Speaker 2:Hack hack.
Speaker 3:Nobody cares.
Speaker 2:Put some training wheels on that, Baron man.
Speaker 3:I always did the last three of the 150 when I had my tail number, unless you're talking to air traffic control.
Speaker 1:And I knew this converse. I knew this was going to come up when I was thinking about this episode. So I did some research. In my hours I spent on tail numbers and I realized the last three of my old plane is for sale. So I actually emailed the guy and asked him how much. I'm just curious because then I could. Then I could just say what I've always said in the next aircraft I get and I wouldn't be cutting it off short. You know what I mean. Lee couldn't bitch and moan because it's like no, that's the tail number, I'm not cutting anything off. That would be worth I don't know a couple hundred bucks for me.
Speaker 2:So run it past me again. What would you be able to get?
Speaker 1:I don't want to say the term November 207?. Yeah, see, it's for sale right now. There's a whole aftermarket for these tail numbers I just discovered recently, so I've been. There's a bunch of tail numbers I've been acquired. There's some people who sell them. I might try to get one of them on the show, just because I'm fascinated by a lot of this. I'm sure they have some interesting. We could probably make an hour episode of that anyway, On your initial call up.
Speaker 2:I recommend.
Speaker 1:Nobody tried to bid me up.
Speaker 2:First type and your full N number, your full call sign if you're in another country, so that the habit is there when you're talking to ATC. This is just what you do. If I'm doing laps in the pattern with a student, I just did this. So I mean my initial call was I'm five to the northeast inbound nine or poor Clinton. I just did this. So I do the full call sign. Then as I get closer I've made I make it entering downwind left base and final, by the time I get to final I'm one whiskey, whiskey short final, nine or poor Clinton. That's all I'm doing. I'm not doing poor Clinton.
Speaker 2:Traffic says no 151 whiskey, whiskey five, northeast inbound nine or poor Clinton. I just say that one initially, but then as I get progressively closer I'm still saying poor Clinton traffic. I like seeing it at the front, at the end, like book ending it so that they missed the beginning. Cause, like me, when my wife's talking to me like I missed the first half of everything she says and then she'll like say the second half again. It's like no, I caught the second half, you need to tell me the first half again because I wasn't listening. So that's the same way I kind of treat my radio communication etiquette is I poor Clinton, traffic system 151 whiskey whiskey entering left downwind nine or poor Clinton, okay, 151 whiskey whiskey left base nine or poor Clinton.
Speaker 1:Hold on, let's see the Scott. Scott, you got to go through this. We got 10 minutes left in this this episode here. You got to get this thing on the Baron on the ground at KPCW. Okay, you made that first call, you messed it up. But you don't know you messed it up other than other than some guy on the radio sitting around drinking a beer at the hangars with his handheld, yelling at you for messing that up.
Speaker 3:I don't even know what. Okay, I'm not going to use. All I did was not use the full, full calcine right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just explaining why I have a stance. I was just saying I'm not going to use short tail numbers Sometimes you put us have short tail numbers like the helicopters on yachts, billionaires, yachts that they own.
Speaker 1:Most of the ones I've seen when I was in that industry have three character. Tail numbers, very short.
Speaker 2:I don't think we can do that in the US.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a bunch of them. It's November, a number and two letters. I can think of three different helicopters.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, but that's four though. Okay, yeah, I'm not kidding, november, okay, gotcha, yeah, yeah, three is the minimum you can do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you're correct on it. Yep, okay.
Speaker 3:So anyway, poor Clinton traffic Baron, one whiskey, whiskey five to the west inbound for Clinton traffic.
Speaker 1:Okay, Now you've checked the whatever that weather radio thing is right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I guess I know which runway I'm using but you're not really saying that I'm at a non-control field.
Speaker 1:No but.
Speaker 3:I would have said what runway. I was tentatively on, but I didn't check it.
Speaker 1:That's probably Niner. Yeah, so you took off of out of Detroit.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah.
Speaker 1:Similar.
Speaker 3:I don't know Probably.
Speaker 1:Let's pretend you're doing it in Niner.
Speaker 2:Well, I would just want to say remember, sometimes at class bigger airports, you know, with airline service which Detroit is, by large, predominantly airline service they're going to use potentially a downwind runway up to 10 knots for sure. It takes like an hour to turn the airport around. So it's not a small. They're going to do that as minimal as they can. So you may be taking off nine at Detroit but you may be taking off nine at Detroit with an eight-knot tailwind and then when you go to uncontrolled I mean it's just advisory you can land with the 29 tailwind and 150 if you want to.
Speaker 2:I'd certainly not recommend that but you can. So I mean you can make it up. That's why people say the active, clearing the active and all these things people say and come up with and there's kind of an expectation that you're going to use the runway that's most in the wind. But let's say the runway that is perfectly into the wind is 2,000 feet long and there's a king here coming into land. He's going to take a crosswind or a downwind before he's going to land on a 2,000 foot long runway. So we just have to think about all the big picture of aircraft performance and the different airplanes are going to utilize that airport.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Niners is probably a good one to just go with for the example purposes.
Speaker 3:Sure yeah. So my next call would be Portland traffic one whiskey, whiskey downwind way nineer.
Speaker 1:Portland. Okay, I was wondering. I didn't see anything wrong with that, but I saw Lee processing it and he gave a nod, so it must be a lot of work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so entering left downwind is what I like to say, because that is literally verbatim. What's in the aim, that's a success. But obviously in my previous I agree, in my previous life I left downwind nineer Portland.
Speaker 1:Well in the.
Speaker 2:But you wouldn't really honestly, coming from Detroit, going into nine at Portland, you'd probably be landing. You probably wouldn't even be entering downwind, You'd probably just go into a base and a final if not a long final.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, because that's kind of you're kind of going east the whole time, but I mean that's kind of us having home field advantage, knowing the layout of the area. But yeah, for most people, if you were to like, if it's quiet and you're tuned in to CTAP a long way out in this evening or something like that, or a slow day, just join a five-mile final and come straight in. You're taking off nine, you're landing nine.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you're downwind.
Speaker 3:And then one whiskey. Whiskey base nine Portland.
Speaker 2:Left base nine. Nobody cares I do you only call it?
Speaker 3:out, if it's right yeah. There's some wisdom in that I mean it's very rare that it's really about a.
Speaker 2:Why not just say right and left as appropriate? Why not just say left and right as appropriate?
Speaker 1:I like to minimize that congested frequency.
Speaker 2:But you've done, yeah, you've done. You're going to do plenty of other stuff. That's not right. At least here you're adding oh, like you're painting a 3D composite image to somebody who's like just entering the pattern, like where is this guy exactly? Or somebody tacking on the ground, they're doing a run up, they're on the. It's just so many things. There's so many reasons.
Speaker 1:Ian just said you got to follow that by a call left.
Speaker 2:final too Coming up, you got to call the left final.
Speaker 1:Yeah, duh.
Speaker 2:It's a left traffic pattern Entering left, final niner. If it's niner left.
Speaker 3:I'm not saying left because left is the standard. I only ever say which direction the base is, if it's right.
Speaker 1:That's how I've always done it. I mean, I can see Lee's argument, but would I do that in real world, gi flying? I don't know, probably not.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'd feel like a loser doing that.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I think, yeah, well, I mean, I feel like the old timers would be like.
Speaker 3:Look at this guy. Maybe sitting at the whole round table, like of course it's a left face you idiot.
Speaker 1:What was that?
Speaker 3:Lee's not laughing.
Speaker 2:I don't even pay attention to you two anymore. I'm trying to help Tyler and his hunt for this class Charlie thing to be honest with you.
Speaker 1:So, scott, your next call.
Speaker 3:One whiskey, whiskey, final niner, poor Clinton.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 2:I agree with that one. That one was good.
Speaker 1:You land? Are you done on the radio?
Speaker 3:then, oh yeah, I'm done.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:You already turned it off, I shut it off, I shut it off I just put the tires attached to it. I shut everything off.
Speaker 1:Shut off the master.
Speaker 3:Yeah, why not? Why not?
Speaker 2:Do you like to go to the radio? Nope.
Speaker 1:What if there was somebody else coming in right behind you, Scott? Is there another calling in that situation?
Speaker 3:I guess I'd say clear the active, but I don't know if I would Personally.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't actually, because, like they can see me, Okay, I have done that before when I know someone's coming in right behind me.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I ever have Just to give them peace of mind. I guess, what good does that do? They can see you there on the edge of their seat waiting for you to be clear enough for their wing to not hit your tail. So, like making that call although it is kind of nice, like a courtesy, I mean, they're watching every inch of that of your airplane.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:They've been following you in for a couple of minutes, listening to everything you're doing, saying, and they've been like working around you. That's why, saying your types, they can kind of have an assessment of where you are in relationship, of what they are like. How fast is the 172 in front of me flying when I'm coming in a lear or whatever, so helping get everybody on the same page as to where or what conflicts are going to arise from the differences in these aircraft speed profiles and whatever. And I think if I've already had to adjust my pattern and adjust my speed and do all these things to modify and make my aircraft's performance profile work with yours, I'm going to be acutely aware with, like where you are, probably, probably, and making that call, although might not be necessary, it is a nice courtesy in case, like maybe I'm on a down I misjudge and I slow, it will wait too much and you're clearing the runway when I think you should be on left base. Like maybe you wrapped around tight and you did all kinds of cool pilot stuff That'd be great.
Speaker 2:Making the call then and like, oh, I'm ahead of schedule, or he's just had a head of schedule around behind schedule, whatever. Whichever way you want to look at it. It is a nice courtesy and it is recommended that you make the call. I make the call. Sometimes I feel stupid after I do it at a small airport, but it's recommended to do and if it's just easy to do, the right thing is the wrong thing, why not just do the right thing? That's my thought.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it sounds good and dirty, but yeah, clear off the runway.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I go down that train, sometimes I purposely don't, sometimes I don't even think about it. Yeah, yeah, that wraps up our Detroit to Portland simulated flight. Thank you for listening. Ladies and gentlemen, that wraps up. We're almost over right at an hour here. Yeah, subscribe to the podcast. Follow us on the Twitter, the rumble Click all the description below. If you can join the ground crew, it covers our costs of operating this shindig. I'm in school for tech, so I got some ideas. I don't know if we'll be using the site the way it is anymore, because I know how to like, start and learn how to code some stuff, and I've got a bunch of ideas on how to actually make pilot ground a lot better for pilots. Yeah, time's an issue, but yeah, thanks for listening and we're going to roll into the just after chat bonus clip on the live stream here, see you.
Speaker 2:All right, Thanks guys. Helpurs Jane Aldvor fail and backlogging, jumping and check him out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'll see you guys next time.