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FAR AIM | Aviation Reg's | Aeronautical Info | FARAIM
#138 | Online Airplane Shopping With Lee Griffing | Part 1 of 2 | Video Link In Description If You Wanna Watch
Ever wondered if the Piper Colt aircraft, with its fabric construction, is a hidden gem in the aviation market? We're convinced it is, and we're here to tell you why! With its 4,000 total flight hours and 700 cents major overhauls, the Colt boasts a unique appeal, perfect for amateur flyers or those wanting a cost-effective entrance into the world of aviation. And with a price tag of 20 grand, it's a steal compared to the 25 grand you'd shell out for a Cessna 150 or 152.
Now, we know the fabric construction may raise some eyebrows amongst those familiar with the dominance of metal-cased planes. Thus, we've decided to take a deep dive into the world of fabric-based aircraft. We're discussing the costs, the necessary flight hours, and the maintenance issues you need to consider. Is it a risky venture or an exciting opportunity to experience a unique piece of aviation history? Well, that's for you to decide after listening to our lively debate comparing fabric planes and metal-cased ones. Strap on your seatbelts, folks - we're about to take off into an intriguing exploration of the Piper Colt aircraft!
See Video Of What We Are Talking About Here:
https://rumble.com/v36dvip-online-airplane-shopping-with-lee-griffing-video-link-in-description-if-you.html
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This first one is Piper Colt for 20 grand. That seem reasonable.
Speaker 2:That I mean that's in mine's not loading, so I don't even know where we are. Like I just went low to high and nothing is populating.
Speaker 1:Says currently inspected 100nah horsepower lycoming Two white leather seats. They put in the description because they won't give you a photo.
Speaker 2:Do you have to pay extra for more photos?
Speaker 1:No, this person. It looks like a photo of a background on their monitor or like a photo of a photo. Yeah, it's a photo of a photo. It looks like from probably 30 years ago. Top overhaul completed 30 hours ago. Adsb out, installed Re-seekonit tail section. What does that mean?
Speaker 2:Re-seekonited.
Speaker 1:Re-seekonited.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's fabric. Okay, I got it now here. Yeah, they recovered the tail. Okay. Currently inspected. I don't even know what that means. I mean it's got a current annual what does this thing add?
Speaker 1:I would assume this is up in Butler, pennsylvania. Okay, this is that 20 grand piper colt 4,000 hours, total time 700 cents major over. So that's yeah, this is the cheapest, I mean with one photo and yeah. I don't know the market on those. I mean no, I mean that's in the bookmark.
Speaker 2:Okay, we have a little bit of a lag happening, I think. Okay, maybe. Maybe not. That sounded pretty good. What were you going to say? What did you say?
Speaker 1:Would you rock a piper colt?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. I mean it's like a piper 152. It's a little heavier but kind of a lot of the bones are there. You know I do like the tube and fabric aspect. I mean there's some maintenance there, but you know the frame is strong, they're tight. You know just like a 150 would be, but you know you got that 2400 hour TBO Lycoming on there. I would. I think they're awesome. I think they're they've. I've only flown one once but I did a flight review with a guy who had one and they're I mean they're not going to set the world on fire, but I do think they're neat and probably undervalued airplane. We can see that right here, I bet, if we keep going down the line here. Obviously this is the cheapest thing on a controller, of course, but we're going to see vastly more expensive Cessna 150s and 152s. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:And that tells you, this will do all of that. These you know, these do you know. 100 knots or so you know, on six gallons an hour, similar performance as a 150, 152, but you just. There's a little bit of the anxiety about the tube and fabric, but I think these are very undervalued airplane in the market.
Speaker 1:It says always, always hangar.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but did they spell hanger right? They did A-J-N-G-A-R-E-D.
Speaker 1:Wow, they did.
Speaker 2:So, man, it's probably an awesome airplane. I don't know. It's definitely be worth looking. If somebody was like, like what we talk about a lot right is people getting in the, getting in the market. Like, hey, I want to learn to fly. I've heard the cheapest way to flight, get flight training done is to buy an airplane. This, I mean this, is something that people need to be looking at more than just the 150, 152. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I've never flown one, but I feel like, in theory, for that price, you'd have to consider it as an option Totally yeah. And.
Speaker 2:I mean, one thing you know is the fabric age. You know in fabric condition, because if you have a bad paint job, every paint shop, even the crappiest ones, know how to strip and repaint. It is very much so like a you know, dying art with the fabric. It's hard to find. There are places, of course, but it's just it is not as well known and people, that turns a lot of people off. Yeah. But I guess what I'm saying is, if there's a will, there's a way, it shouldn't necessarily turn you off. Yeah.
Speaker 2:What do you think about that? If you were to go, you rewind the clock and what you knew when you got your 150, would you even consider this? Then let's say it's still the same price. Then, as it is now 20 grand, this same airplane and you are looking at getting into yours and whatever you paid for yours.
Speaker 1:Well, back in the day I had 25. So this is five grand less Half of 25.
Speaker 2:This is five grand less, but fabric.
Speaker 1:Over four.
Speaker 2:And you don't see the total time 30 hours since a major overhaul or top overhaul new cylinders. All new top means top OH overhaul, so that's just cylinders completed 30 hours ago. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1:For 25,. You can't get mine for 25, though, so it's kind of irrelevant this thing. Who knows how cheap this would have been back in the day.
Speaker 2:Man, I don't know, I don't think you were getting it. Even back then I don't think you were getting on that, maybe 15.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, uh, I'm in that, I'm in that boat where the fabric um it. It worries me a little bit. If I was going to go that route. It would have to be something like a J3 Cub or you know something. Something else, okay.
Speaker 2:Personally yeah you see the you need more reward for the risk that you might be taking.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:You need to check more boxes, okay.
Speaker 1:I would. I would want to recover a plane, but if I am paying for a total recover, I'd feel a lot more comfortable doing that on a J3 than a, than a papercolt.
Speaker 2:Well, just because you know you're putting 10 grand into the plane.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then you think there's the ceiling in the J3. What do you? Mean you'd be more comfortable, I just I just know I'm not going to lose my but I had to financially.
Speaker 2:Financially, uh, something like a. J3 versus the papercolt which I mean you could completely recover that plane and it's uh nothing yeah the gain is, yeah, the high end on a cult, the nicest cult you'll ever find, that's a 28 to $30,000. Yeah, that's, that's the ceiling on those. Yeah, that's just all there is to it. So you have to have that in mind. This needs, this needs to be a pretty nice one. Um yeah.
Speaker 1:Needs to be a pretty nice one for 20, but the market is crazy, so yeah, here are two Piper J3 Cubs for $22,000 a piece, one in Florida, one in California. It's the auction. I think that's the legal ease of what stuff was stated, and I would assume it's going to go for more for that, more than that right, I mean, have you had a chance to look at?
Speaker 2:Chapter seven bankruptcy trustee sale auction.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the, yeah the fact they're two different examples way far away. Um, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well it's. I looked into this before we start recording. It looks like the same owner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're just the ones yeah.
Speaker 1:They look really nice, j3s. They got to be going more for that than that, the one in Jacksonville that's exceptionally well taken care of.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I have to look into it, but there's limited. You'd have to call on it, I guess, to kind of get the scoop. That's what I'd be interested in doing. Yeah, this one.
Speaker 1:This one in.
Speaker 2:Jacksonville looks really good. But 22 grand, I mean that is sub whatever. That is well below the median. Well, obviously, I mean that is very, very low and I would expect a $22,000 cub to need an engine overhaul at the lead. Yeah, I mean I picture you see a $22,000 cub. I basically picture it missing its engine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as a starting point. This is showing one hour since new, so it's got a brand new engine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what it says and that's possible. Kind of weird that it's basically a sheriff's sale type thing. Yeah, there's a lot of legal documents that I can't even really read, but I'm not trying to, but the pictures I do see it does look very maculate. They're kind of weird angles so I can't read and do it too much. But looking at the instrument panel looks pretty original. Oh yeah. Wood prop on the one that I'm looking at, which I'm not a fan of. I'd yank that wood prop. They look good but terrible performance wise.
Speaker 1:What were you going to say? No, I just what. I didn't know you were anti-wood prop.
Speaker 2:I'm pretty much anti-wood prop. Okay. There's just too much of a performance hit too, much of a performance hit using them. What is the performance hit? I get the look. I just don't, I can't.
Speaker 1:I don't think I'm flonking something. Well, yeah, I mean you're going to Now.
Speaker 2:They are nice and light, they're smooth, they're what?
Speaker 1:Oh. I've never flown something with a wood prop.
Speaker 2:They're smooth and they're For hand propping. They're nice and light. You know when you're spinning them. Some people think they look good, but when I look at them and I think performance, I can't see the beauty that other people see when they see the wood prop, because all I see is degradation of performance.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I know they originally came with wood prop but they're already so limited in performance they need all the help they can get in a wood prop.
Speaker 1:Is it helping?
Speaker 2:Doesn't help matters? Nope, not at all. They're light though and they're smooth. But and there can be a case made if you look in the type certificate data sheet there's a very wide In Cubs I kind of happen to know a little bit more about, there's a very what do I want to say? Very vague language as to lengths and such.
Speaker 2:For a wooden prop. You can go up, I want to say, to an 81-inch diameter wood prop, where when you go to metal it has to be 70, depending on what engine's on it. But 74 is kind of the max length metal prop and of course a longer prop typically gives you better climb performance and so some people read into that and they can the climb performance they get out of a wood prop with that very generous 81-inch diameter super seeds or X seeds, I should say the metal prop of 74-inch in performance, although they lose it even more in the crews because they've pitched it so fine for takeoff performance. But I think the metal you can get basically the best of both worlds with very little sacrifice. But some people do it just for the look. Where.
Speaker 1:Why are you not able to make a metal prop as long?
Speaker 2:I don't know why that is there is and I don't have any substantiating data right now. But there is something I have heard is that if you have a prop strike with a wood prop you are less likely to get a less likely or maybe you don't have to tear down the motor because the prop just breaks. It literally breaks like a stick. So I think from a prop clearance standpoint I can kind of see that maybe there can be an advantage there. And at the time the CAR, civil Aviation Regulations or CAA, I guess at the time the governing they would have been like okay, we can make this longer, because even though you're more likely to have a prop strike, the prop's going to break. If you have a metal prop this length and you have a prop strike, you've done internal damage to the engine. That's the only thing I can think of. That's the only thing I can think of. Obviously, the harmonics and things they can test. I know there are some instances where the harmonics would be a factor, like I know on a Continental C90, there was a harmonic issues on a Piper J3. Those props are limited to 71 inches, where the A65, c85 Contanennals, those all are allowed the 74 inch. So a lot of people tend to think the C85 Continental is the ideal engine for the Piper J3.
Speaker 2:It's in the Type Certificate Data Sheet. So basically you can change an original J3 Cub from an A65. That's how they all came. All J3s came well. Almost all J3s came within a 65, or with a 65 horse.
Speaker 2:With a log book entry you can switch it to a C85. You don't have to do an STC, you don't have to get a 337, a major alteration or repair. You don't have to get an FAA field approval. It's literally a logbook entry because it is already listed on the Type Certificate Data Sheet. That's how I understand it anyways. Okay, so from a paperwork standpoint you can go buy a 65 horse J3. There were Franklin powered, lycoming powered, continental powered. I'm talking only about the Continental powered ones, cause all the others are on a different type of certificate. But anyways, all the Continental stuff, you can get that and you can add instant 20 horsepower by bolting on a C85. The props almost swap as well. So if you have a prop that is pitched to operate within the A65 RPM limitations, it also works with the C85 RPM limitations. It's I mean, it's a great. It's a great bolt on performance upgrade and easy cause you don't have to have a whole lot of paperwork.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that Interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that also takes a 74 inch metal prop.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we had talked to. We were texting the other day and about top 10 aircraft. If we could have like 10 realistic, semi-realistic airplanes in our future hangar someday J3 probably-.
Speaker 2:And the J3 barely made your top 10, right, is that true?
Speaker 1:It'd probably be in a top 10, I don't know, I'd have to really nail down that list.
Speaker 2:Not a top five, though it's not a top five, or-.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, We'd have to, really I'd have to. We'd have to do another episode on that, almost exclusively, and I'd have to think about it a lot more J3 is always like oh right, yeah, if we knew what we were gonna do. I like J3's, but there's a lot of stuff I don't. Before I I had one, I don't know how many. I don't know if that's 10 aircraft before or not.
Speaker 2:So like let's say, let's say one of these J3's right here was going could be had for 22 grand oh yeah, I'd be Does that change anything?
Speaker 1:Yeah, if it was 22,000, for especially that one that they're showing in Florida, right? They're both 1946's. Yeah, yeah, this example here, that would be, yeah, 22 grand, not in a position. It wouldn't be in a position to do it by the time this auction is happening. But yeah, that'd be, I'd probably be on my short list. I've been looking at stuff that's in that range.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:It's not even airplanes. That'd be more than that.
Speaker 2:So I could get an airplane for that. Yeah Well, and then that's the thing. It's kind of like just your price, your entry price, to get into flying. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like that's the way I'm thinking about it, like for me, and if I wanna go fly, I wanna fly something as different as possible from my day job and that has to be tail wheel, has to be tube and fabric, all that stuff. But then when you start thinking about all those airplanes that make that those cool I mean everybody else thinks they're cool too for the most part and the price is insane. So even J3 prices have gone through the roof. They're double this or more triple this. I mean you're seeing 60 and $70,000 J3s. So I mean even at that price point is crazy, but it's still the cheapest way to have that grassroots, fun tail wheel flying.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of issues with J3s practicality-wise, but I mean I have some things in mind or what I would like to do to maybe help. But there's only so much you can do and I don't think there's much about a J3 that kind of meets the modern pilots expectations. You've got to have a real good idea what you're getting into or you're just gonna be really upset with the money you spent, especially buying at the top of the market, like things are right now, buying a $50,000 airplane that goes 65 knots not a good day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, On my short list would be like my top 10 would be a cub. It just wouldn't be a J3, it'd be like a super cub. Ideally something like an.
Speaker 2:X Cub 50, 200,000,.
Speaker 1:Well, an X Cub yeah, 300,000, 400,000, some thousand they are now to what are it new?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we're a 10th of that. We're a 10th of that price.
Speaker 1:But I'm talking the tail dragger grass strip type thing, is. That's definitely on my top 10. Just, I don't know if a J3 is on my top 10. That makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's not for everybody, that's a fact, that's a fact.
Speaker 1:I would lean more towards, like Satabria for to fill that niche, that desire that I would have and get out of a J3. I feel like Satabria is not too much more of a leap these days, price wise. I don't know what they're doing, but yeah, I don't either that's just a hypothesis, but I would get more out of a Satabria. They don't look as cool as a J3.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:I can't get past.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't get past the looks on a lot of the Aranjas, unfortunately, Like the Aranja Champ, for example, does almost everything better than a J3. And they're cheaper. But I just can't. When I open that hangar door, I was just. I just know I'm not gonna be as happy with what I see.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's a lot of time you spend looking at the outside of that airplane, then you do inside it. So I think that's very, very important to me to be happy with what I see when I open that hangar door Sotabria. A lot of the same lines of the champ kind of, in my opinion, a little bit more of a pot belly to it. But the performance in the bank for the buck out of Sotabria, yes, just like, just like a champ, the bank for the buck, or a sesson 140 for that matter, there's so much cheaper than a J3. I mean and I'm out of the loop a lot now, but I would bet you're probably, if you're getting $50,000 for J3s right now, 40 to 50, you know you're probably getting 25 to 30, I would think, out of one sesson 120, sesson 140, maybe, maybe 40 grand for a really nice one and you get a lot more.
Speaker 2:You get heat that works, you get side by side in the case of the 140 and you get generous. It's tandem in a champ but you get generous elbow room and it's like just a lot more ergonomic for 21st century Americans to go fly and you have heat that works. It does, you know, 85, 90 miles an hour On four gallons an hour, just like a cub hat. I mean, there's a lot of things that make sense about an or a ca champ Sotabria, but you know another order of magnitude, higher than that still. You know there's a probably doing a hundred knots, you know, or a hundred miles an hour rather, and and on six gallons an hour. You know, if you do like the, if you do the, 0 to 35, and then of course there's 160 horsepower versions and all that stuff. But I think they're probably a very significant bang for the buck in the marketplace If you, if you were to be so inclined for the tail wheel yeah, the next we have an Alexander Schistler.
Speaker 1:It's a glider. It's in Canada for 22 grams, 1978, no idea.
Speaker 2:Doesn't even have a motor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, true, I would Would. That's what you expect from a J3, with for that price would be no motor.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, right.
Speaker 1:I do want to try glider at some point in my life.
Speaker 2:But the concept is fascinating.
Speaker 1:I'd like to get a rating to do it, because I think you learn a lot about like Not doing go arounds, you know.
Speaker 2:They can do go arounds.
Speaker 1:I heard that you kind of can, but Dude, these.
Speaker 2:Here's the thing. As a powered air, you know aircraft pilot, we can't even wrap our brain around with the glide perform. How high performance gliders actually are. Yeah, I mean it's just insane. I mean they're 50 60. I think there was one model that has like an 80 to 1 glide ratio. Yeah, it's just mind-boggling, you know.
Speaker 2:But yeah, there's a lot of science and a lot of stuff I I expect you would learn, going through the training thermals and all the Looking at topography to kind of get an idea of where that, what the surface winds are and in all kinds of stuff I think Would be, would be fascinating yeah.
Speaker 1:Yep 1941 Porterfield LP 65 for 24,900 dollars. You know anything about these? I know nothing, but it looks like an.
Speaker 2:Aranca chief to me. I have no idea what this thing is.
Speaker 1:I've seen them before.
Speaker 2:I've heard of them, but it looks like an Aranca chief. Is it side-by-side? Because an Iran Aranca chief is like a champ, just side-by-side. For the most part, this is front and back Is it really.
Speaker 1:Wow Looks like they made it not a chunky looking plane from the photos here.
Speaker 2:No, it looks a little squaudy to me personally, but I don't know the specs on any of it though, so I can't really weigh in. All right, so it just in the notes here. On the ad it says it's got a like homing 0145, 65 horsepower. Okay, so it's a horizontally pose, 145 cubic inch. Now those old like homings although I'm a like homing fan, the new ones, these ones were very, very weak. Most people are incredibly skeptical whether they put out 65 horsepower or not. People claim it was more like 50. Huh, so the, if you see, and it may, that may adequately power this airplane. I don't know, I know nothing about it, but I know in the Cubs, the like homing powered Cubs. I know that the Cubs are not that powerful, but I know that the Cubs are not that powerful. I know that the Cubs are not that powerful and I know nothing about it, but I know, in the Cubs, the like homing powered Cubs, most those have been converted to continental's because it just was not enough performance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the engine in the one photo is not on the plane, so that's always, always fun. A breath taking, a total restoration of a classic World War. Ii era primary trainer, who's ever ridin this?
Speaker 2:There, I mean, it does look pretty, looks like a pretty good restore, I mean. I guess I mean yeah, I just don't know enough about them. I just yeah, I mean, it looks very chief champ-esque to me, so I just I can't. 24 grand, though it just depends on what you're looking for. Maybe some people want that exclusivity and whatever. I don't want that. I want to open up a Univerr catalog and be able to order any part that breaks on a J3. That's what I want. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And maybe you can do that with these, but the fact that there's only maybe one right now for sale tell me something.
Speaker 1:Viper Warrior 2, 1979. You feel like you know some stuff about these airplane huh, I do.
Speaker 2:This is a great year. I even like the hanger that they built. They have in this picture. I really like these hangers. I like that. It's like a metal truss frame like a Kwanzaa hut type look right, Half circle, yeah and it's like covered in vinyl or, you know, like a canvas-y type thing. I always think that's really cool. It's got to be pretty cheap to build, but basically it's an open hanger. This is a 1979 Viper Warrior 2. So it's 160 horse.
Speaker 2:79 is a great year because they were light. I want to say in 80 or 81, they transitioned to putting the firewall from the back underneath the back seat to or in the back anyways, Pretty short under the back seat, but regardless. After that they moved to the firewall, which totally threw off its handling characteristics, and I used to fly some of these different years back to back and it was not a small difference if you had any amount of time in them. This is a great year 50, almost 5,400 hours total time for a 79. So I can't imagine it was a trainer too much. Looks like it's based at Grass Strip though, so that would be something to consider.
Speaker 2:But for 27.5, yeah, I mean, yeah, you're going to have issues like that. I mean getting you know whatever importing and you're going to have to get a DAR or DER, whoever it is that imports them. Get one out in your area and they'll get you through the steps. Obviously I have to. That'll add some complexity and some cost to getting it, but this is 27.5 US. I mean US dollars.
Speaker 1:I feel like that's a decent buy right there.
Speaker 3:That's a totally. Now I don't know anything about the engine.
Speaker 2:Well, what's it say on the? What do we got on the engine, engine, engine, engine.
Speaker 1:Oh, one fourth share available, oh never mind. Oh, see man that fine print, that'll get you Never mind. Well unless you're in this area and you want to own a fourth of a Piper Warrior.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's too bad, that's too bad.
Speaker 1:Same for you to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I mean that is a good deal. But I mean, like, look at this basic empty weight people listen to this 1,518 pounds, that's the basic empty weight on this thing. So it's got an 800, almost, yeah, 800. It says 800, 7 pound useful load. Now, yeah, I get it. You had fuel and all this stuff and people. It's the same thing as every other 172 that everybody's used to. You put full fuel and you're only taking two people and maybe some bags. That's just the way it is. But, like for this airplane, I mean it's, they're so balanced, they're a joy to fly. You keep the fuel light, depending on your mission. Of course you got to make those choices, but you're right there with archers and 172s all day long. So this thing okay. So 27.5 for a quarter share. So this is basically a $100,000 airplane. Yep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, 100, 120 somewhere around in there.
Speaker 1:That makes more sense.
Speaker 2:Makes a lot more sense. Man, that'd still be a good deal for people. But see that engine though, yeah, I mean buying in now, I would, I'd be talking them down. That seems a little high for this airplane if we do the 27.5 times four shares because this engine has 1362, 1,362 cents major overhaul. So yeah, it's probably running great, but I'd want to be 100 to 120 for this airplane. That sounds a little high. So I personally would be trying to knock probably five to six grand off the off my entry into this, because I know in no less than just from an insurance standpoint they're going to want to see you overhaul this thing at 2,000 hours, so they're coming up on a basically 600 hours till. That thing needs a major overhaul.
Speaker 1:And that's going to be what's that? With three other people flying and with four people?
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, exactly. So you know that the thing's going to fly, even when it's going to gain hours, even when you're not in the seat, probably. So that's something to consider. That's going to be a 27. Actually, I can look at my spreadsheet because I just updated my Lycoming prices for that kind of engine Not necessarily an 0320. I don't think I have on here. That engine is going to cost $27,271. So divide that by four people, yeah, I mean that's roughly six grand each. So I'd be trying to knock this down to 21. I mean, of course you're going to fly some of those 400. So you got to think about that, think how much you're going to fly it, and then deduct that out. So I mean you're probably trying to get them down to maybe 20, 24, 25 grand.
Speaker 1:Well, it's a partnership that's probably just an hourly throw in that's making a pool for the overall. That's how a lot of partnerships do that right, so it's just kind of like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess you're correct. Yeah, I guess that depends on how it's set up. Me personally, I'm thinking that they're going to always be like well. You know the other three partners who have been in it for five, 10 years, they're like well, what about the new guy? Why is my share? I mean, I guess, if the previous owner, if their money stays in that pool, I guess they should have it when they're done that. It should stay in the pool because they flew the hour right.
Speaker 1:And if you're the new guy, why should I be paying for all the flight hours? You guys put it on before I was even an owner of it. That's the other side of the thing.
Speaker 2:100%, 100% dude. Yeah, no, I agree with you. I guess it just depends on the structure of how they're. If they've done everything on the open up and they have that, basically that pot that they've been building, every time somebody flies it, x amount goes in that pot for the engine and the annuals and whatever for your cosmetics and avionics. However, you have your accounts figured out, what you put in what per hour, as long as that money stayed with the plane, even though the partner left or that it's broke down correctly. I'd want to see all that stuff up front, though, so I'm not in it for a year and I have to go cough up five six grand for an engine that I didn't put any time on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm anti-partnerships. Now, the 150 I had I learned how to fly in was a partnership with one other person. Well, it was father, son and it worked out well. But I'm just like I don't want to press my luck doing that again because where the odds you get multiple aircraft partnerships over a lifetime that are all great. You know what I mean. Yeah. I think you have a really good deal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, or at least have your maybe dabble a little bit and have probationary periods or confines on how it operates. I would be very leery. I have pride in ownership and stuff.
Speaker 1:Even if it's junk.
Speaker 2:I just have pride in ownership. I can beat on something, but it's not okay if you beat on it, type thing. That's just how I am. I'm like an only child like that.
Speaker 2:I mean there are certain people that I would let fly it. It just depends. But by and large I'm not a fan of the partnership I get yelled at because when I'm done flying I will leave the gas where it is. I tend to like to keep my gas lower, lighter than a lot of people do. They want it topped off. They want to see full gauges or full tanks when they stick it or whatever.
Speaker 2:I don't like that. I see all that as waste. I will keep burning fuel down. If I take it topped off, something just rolls out because I have some weird structure of some of the stuff that I fly where I'm supposed to put gas in it but it got used by other people but they topped it off. I know I'm going to be the person that fly it the next three times. But then all of a sudden somebody comes in and they're like, well, they didn't put fuel in. It's like, well, yeah, because the next time I go take it I don't want fuel in it. You're going to bring it back to me with a bunch of weight that I can't have because I'm taking a lot of stuff, but I'm not going very far, I don't need a lot of fuel.
Speaker 2:We have different missions in mind. Perhaps it's not that I'm trying to do the wrong thing or not pay I'll pay, but I need to keep my mind on what my uses are going to be. I've had a couple times been right up to gross weight this summer and it's like I don't want that. I don't need that. I don't want that. I want climb performance, I want cruise performance. I just like all of that. I like eking out as much performance as I can, and the weight does not allow you to do that. When I'm only going to burn five gallons for the round trip, I don't need to take 50. That's legit. It takes two and a half gallons each way. It just doesn't make sense for me to carry around all that extra weight. Obviously, legal VFR reserves for my purposes. I don't even have a partnership and it's still aggravating to navigate that when it comes up which isn't that often.
Speaker 2:But when it does, even if somebody doesn't say anything directly to me and I know that there are just rumblings that, oh, we didn't put fuel in it it's like, yeah, because I don't want fuel in it. I'm the primary person that flies it and I don't want fuel in it. Send me a bill If you have to be inconvenienced by having somebody put gas in it for you. Write it down, send me the bill. Whatever, all the little stuff with partnerships.
Speaker 1:Araca 1941. Araca 65 LB. Is that 65 pounds? Do you know anything about the Aracas?
Speaker 2:I don't. I'm trying to load it here.
Speaker 1:Looks like it's got the weird tube for the vacuum system mechanical vacuum system tube. Yeah, the Venturi tube, I'm not ashamed of that, I'll just swap that thing out.
Speaker 2:All right, is this a half share? Let's make sure we're not talking about this for a half hour before we find out.
Speaker 2:Also very clean, classic aircraft 3000 total time, complete logs, 775 cents major damage history left-hand wing repair and landing gear fitting repair, wing in the gear repair and things like that on something that's from 1941 and it's presumably got a fair amount of the hours that are on it since the repair. That doesn't really scare you with all. You know how it is, rob. All these tail wheel airplanes that were used for stuff, they all have history, they all have damaged history, they've all been ground looped, they've all been taken on a ride off the runway, just the way it is. You just got to make sure the repair was done correctly, and so that might cause you a little bit of grief on the pre-purchase inspection to find somebody who's qualified to like weigh in whether it was a quality rebuild or overhaul or whatever repair or not, and then getting them to and from the airplane. So you're gonna have some expense. Some expense in that. But you know, maybe if you live so this airplane happens to be it looks like in Tulsa it doesn't probably make sense for you to go through to work to find that out on this airplane if you live in Maine or Florida or Florida. Yeah, yeah, just that's.
Speaker 2:That's my take on it, the expense you are adding, unless you've always wanted this airplane and this is the airplane that your great grandpa soloed in, you know, and then he went on to be a B-17 pilot. That's, you know, a story. If you have nostalgia and you can bake that in the cake, that's totally obviously a totally different deal. But you got to want this airplane, and this is any, not just this airplane, this, any similar situation. You have damage, you need to make sure that that's good. How do you figure that out? You got to get some kind of expert, somebody you trust, to go look at it. Well, now you're talking airline tickets, meals, expenses, all that stuff tail route and onto this.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, exactly added on to the cost of this airplane. Maybe it's worth it to you.
Speaker 1:That's you, you know the, the rocket doesn't get me excited not at all doesn't mean not at all.
Speaker 2:This is a good-looking example of this airplane it's a good-looking plane for sure, yeah, a good-looking plane.
Speaker 2:I shouldn't say example because I know nothing about this. 65 lb is what the model is, no idea. That also has the like homing, 65 horse. So again, compared to the continental I've heard of nerf on a like home, one of these little like homings, but I've heard that they are definitely a 65 horse is definitely an overestimation. But for 30 grand and you want that nostalgic tail wheel, this, this looks like a good airplane. But man, to go find out that it's a, that it's a great one, is gonna cost you some extra. So you just got to factor that in on top of the 29 grand 30 1974 stole P star duster to SA 300, whatever that means.
Speaker 1:You ever heard of these?
Speaker 2:yeah, I don't know if that means is a 300 horse or not. No, it's definitely not. I don't know that. But I star duster, you know that's a kind of a bigger name I'm a little. Yeah, they're around. I mean, they're definitely around, aerobatic, you know, kind of like a experimental, pitsy type thing. Yeah, little biplane, this one has 160 horse like homing, 960 total time with the, with the experimentals.
Speaker 2:I mean it's just like the kind of similar conversation we just had about that wing repair and that gear repair on that aronka, this you now you're looking at the whole airplane. You got to find somebody who's built these, that knows these, that knows tube and fabric, and just start kind of working backwards and hopefully get some plugins from the like your network, somebody who knows these airplanes because it's experimental. On top of it it's tube and fabric. Well, it's experimental and that's doing tube and fabric on top of that. You know, it's not like it's a vans RV 8 where there's now a million people who are familiar with those airplanes and they are. So the building, the tooling and everything when they they do the drill out, the rivets and all the, all the prefabbing that they do at the factory make it not idiot proof, but they make it a very easy and repeatable design for people to do.
Speaker 2:This could be and I don't know that much about they could be plans built this airplane. I have no idea, and when I say plans built a lot of experimental aircraft back in the day. You got drawings yeah.