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FAR AIM | Aviation Reg's | Aeronautical Info | FARAIM
#139 | Online Airplane Shopping With Lee Griffing | Part 2 of 2 | Video Link In Description If You Wanna Watch
Looking to fly high with your own set of wings but not sure where to start? Get ready to soar as we unravel the complexities of buying an experimental home-built aircraft. From novice-friendly Aircoupes to iconic J3 Cubs, we rummage through various models, their unique features, and the hard-to-find parts that keep them airborne. We even delve into the auditory aesthetic of the propeller hum, a soothing soundtrack for the skyward journey.
We then switch gears to the realm of Piper Tri-Pacers and Globeswift aircraft, using a 1957 Piper Tri-Pacer as our specimen. This powerful bird, armed with a 150 horse engine, is up for grabs for a cool $34,000. We ponder over the pros and cons of buying such a whimsical machine and compare it with its pre-1980 and post-1980 counterparts. And let's not forget the all-important panel and manifold pressure gauge of the Tri-Pacer, a vital aspect for any potential buyer.
Rounding off this aeronautical adventure, we consider the much-debated purchase of a Cessna 150. With a 1974 model, equipped with an O200 engine, going over Time Between Overhaul (TBO) and listed for $37,000, we ponder on the cost-effectiveness of this buy. Unearth the potential insurance pitfalls and other possible aircraft options like the 1966 Cherokee 180, 1979 Warrior, and the 2021 Vans RV 9A. So buckle up, it's going to be a wild ride!
These are episodes that are better watched than listened to!
https://rumble.com/v38bxsd-139-online-airplane-shopping-with-lee-griffing-part-2-of-2.html
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I would not be comfortable personally buying an experimental home built. No, that's a. I'm interested in building something someday like myself, right? I mean like it had to be something where I just know the person was just like very exacting in everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's still such a gamble, I mean it's just so psychological, like to think about, like you can know, the most fastidious OCD person and it's just like, yeah, I totally trust them to build that, but I don't want to fly it. I mean, it's just so psychological to me, yeah, that'd be a pass for me, but there's a market 32 grand they're looking for it. I mean, I guess they're a hot little home built though from my understanding, but just not for me.
Speaker 1:We're up to $32,000 now, from listed lowest to highest. Have we found anything that excites us?
Speaker 2:I haven't really found anything yet. We need to know more on those cubs for 22 grand.
Speaker 1:There's two of them a country apart. Well, yeah, if that was even.
Speaker 2:That would be very exciting.
Speaker 1:I mean I would be excited if that was actually 22,000. I mean, with the exception of those, which is too good to be true. I haven't found anything that excites me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree. What's going on?
Speaker 1:Eurocoupe Aircoupe.
Speaker 2:You know anything about these things?
Speaker 1:Aircoupe, aircoupe, mm-hmm, is that? Is there a?
Speaker 2:Eurocoupe there might be, but this isn't one of those. Aircoupe, yeah, aircoupe. Everybody knows an aircoupe. You know it's like their attempt to get hey, it's down by you, man. This was their attempt to open, flying up to the masses. These are, you know, 40s. They may have kept building them into the 50s. I'm not an aircoupe expert, but they had different models. You know. Some of the early ones started with the A65, like I've been talking about all night so far but then the later ones, I believe C85 and C90s maybe, but they're most known for they don't have rudder pedals. You control them solely by the yoke, that's right, I've heard this yeah, so that was them trying to.
Speaker 2:They link it all together. What's that?
Speaker 1:They link it all together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they link it all together and then obviously there'd be some crosswind limitations and things to consider, you know, because you have to drop the aileron and it adds rudder at the same time. It's just a weird concept, but them linking them together made it a little more approachable for people who are used to just driving around a car. So yeah. Different.
Speaker 1:And it's pending now taking back up offers though. Oh wow, 1,000 hours total time. Uh-huh, 54 cents major I don't know what.
Speaker 2:What does it have? Kind of a C85,? Okay, so this is a 46. I don't know if that is an original engine or not, I don't know. I know the later models did have that and if it's got the C85, this one very well may have rudder pedals. Hold on, let me get an interior picture. The rudder pedals they started, you started being able to get them, or they were installed in the later models and the C85s were later. So maybe this is I can't tell in that picture you just put up in my I can't see.
Speaker 1:There's one, there's another. It doesn't look like it's got rudder pedals, not that I can see. Yeah, unless that's a rudder pedal maybe.
Speaker 2:Oh, here's a. Ah, maybe Keep going a couple more pictures. There's one mind still loading, but I got crappy hotel Wi-Fi so I can't load anything, but Keep going.
Speaker 1:One more? I think no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, oh well, that's a brake pedal.
Speaker 1:It did not look like rudder pedals to me.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, so this is, and I wanted to say that, but I wasn't sure. I feel like this 46 is toward the beginning. This airplane probably originally came with an A65, but I'm not sure. So, yeah, no rudder pedals, but it's got the upgraded engine. 32.5, I think personally, is an astronomical number for this airplane. Yeah, I don't know anything about them really. I mean 54 cents major overhaul, that's great. Now, granted this engine, you could buy this airplane for the engine. Yeah, yeah, you could buy this airplane for the engine. You got 20, 25 grand in an engine. If it was a good, obviously, logbooks in front of you look at who did the work and how what kind of quality overhaul it was. But if it was a high quality overhaul, you're talking. The majority of this, which I guess is not unlike a lot of airplanes, but a lot of the value of this airplane, is in the engine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I didn't know those engines were that much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I may be overshooting a little bit, but parts are getting harder to come by. And do you have the time If you have a J3 Cub with a C85 on it and you wipe out a cam or crank or something like that and you want to put it back original the cost or the wait time Because your airplane can't fly without that crank. So I got to spend a lot of money. You already got to wait a long time. So the value is there for the C95s and C90s in my opinion especially, but C85s would be a great choice as well.
Speaker 1:Do you prefer the sound of those over a Rotex?
Speaker 2:Oh God, you had to get me started. Absolutely, I like that slow prop turning sound. I don't want to hear a freaking snowmobile or a lawnmower. I just I can't do it. I don't know if I'll ever be able to. It is just so off-putting to me. Yeah, personally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the 1967 Cessna 150. We obviously talk about this a lot on the show. This one's up in Canada $33,428.
Speaker 2:Right in the ballpark it doesn't excite me, because it has. This is right in the ballpark.
Speaker 1:Of what they're going for now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd say this is a good. This is middle of the pack, I would say for 150s. I don't know that much about it. I see it high times. It's got basically 6,900 hours on it. It's a 67.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I mean it's a little bit of an older one, but and you got to re, you got to re-up the Slack messages going off. Here you have to repaint the things for Canadian registration.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that'll certainly make it harder. You have to paint that in and then paint big N number over top of it if you're importing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And then we got our Cessna was at 76. Total restore, you remember it, Beautiful specimen, and for 150. We got a 600 hours on it for 25 grand. It's like I could pair that now to I. Just I couldn't do it. So I don't think I'll ever have a 150 again just because of that. You know what I mean. Everything's more money, higher time, and that is nice, Right. So it's just like I'm just kind of out of the 150.
Speaker 2:Well.
Speaker 1:I don't think I'll ever have another.
Speaker 2:You're not going to have. That's the bar, which, for as far as I know, that's the nicest one that I've ever known or come into contact with. That's You're not going to surpass that, and the money alone To find the example of that airplane at any price would be hard to do. So now we factor in price, so it's like. It's almost impossible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, any factor, yeah, any. Any example. Buying 150-wise isn't going to be as good as the one I had. So it's like it just takes and it's a 150. So it's like it's not like it's. You know it's. I've just moved on.
Speaker 2:I feel like so like, are you afraid? Like I just can't get it. So like, let's say you had a gob of money and you just wanted to relive the glory days. You think it would be hard to read, at any price, to basically read, to have what you had. Like, let's say, you're willing to put 80 grand into something. You got to find a low-time airframe and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:If I find a low-time airframe it was in good condition clean everything and then I sent it to. Who's doing those 150 conversions Aviat?
Speaker 2:Like refurbishing them completely.
Speaker 1:The 150, 150.
Speaker 2:Oh well, I don't know who holds the STC. There's multiple STCs for the different 150 horse. But Aviat, they are doing they reimagined, where they refurbished them. I didn't know that they were adding 150 horse engines to them there. Okay, I thought they were. Maybe they are.
Speaker 1:If I did do it, I have to be like a lower-time, like less than 2,000 hours, clean history. Good starting point. Convert it to 150 horse instead of the 100, and just make it super nice like just go through it and then I'd probably enjoy it. What if that? How much are you in on a 150 by that point to make that plane versus like other stuff? I'd want to go by at that point.
Speaker 2:That's a really good point. I mean, that's a really I don't know. Like me when you think J3s. J3s are even more pointless than a 150 is. But I'm totally fine to sink a ton of money into one of those. Why is that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it's the J3, it's like I think that's gonna hold. They're gonna hold their value more than the 150s long-term, though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, I would have to imagine. I guess it's still. You're just still just, it's an airplane to in theory, get from point A to point B, which a J3 barely does. You know what I mean. So like yeah, but Value is.
Speaker 1:so it's a fun plane at that point. What's that? It's just a fun airplane at that point.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1:That you like.
Speaker 2:Well, so here's something that we've talked about a few times. But let's say you do this 150 horse conversion on a Cessna 150, and we rave about how light and nimble the handling is on a 150, which is all correct. But what happens if you put that? Heavy 0320 up there and it destroys the handling.
Speaker 1:That's salad, I get rid of it. I don't know. I'd like to fly with 150-150. Because I have this idea in my head that if you could maintain the nimbleness with you know, 50% more horsepower, 150 be a fun plane. If it was like a good example, like the one I used to have yeah, like the plane I used to have with 150 horse, would be sweet.
Speaker 2:Right. I just don't know how balanced it's gonna feel compared to that. You know that lightness on the 021.
Speaker 1:A lot more weight up front.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sure is. And a bigger prop that you have to swing as well, a much bigger beef, your prop to transmit that thrust to the air. You know, but I don't know, if there's STC's where you get the battery in the back versus in the front, you know, to help shed some of the weight and balance it back out. I don't know, but that'll be interesting, what all you can do to maintain that the balance while adding horsepower. All right, you ready for the next up?
Speaker 1:I'm ready for the next up.
Speaker 2:All right man, we got a 1957 Piper Tri-Pacer 34,000 dollars 34. So.
Speaker 1:Up in Canadian.
Speaker 2:I mean we're talking about bases that we started with. We kind of have the bookends here. Now we have the Colt in the beginning for 20 grand. Now we're $14,000 later. We got a Tri-Pacer. I'm not at a glance here. What's up?
Speaker 1:All other things. Obviously there's a bunch of factors involved, but just face value. I'm spending an extra 14 for the Tri-Pacer Zero down, having never flown either, just out of its reputation of both Zero down.
Speaker 2:This is a good year. This is a good. This is a more late model, 150 horse engine. This is one of the ones to get. I'm not obviously I don't like this paint job and things like that, and we'd have to look at all the same considerations of the Colt Tube and fabric. So you worry about lawn drones being rusted out, you worry about fabric If you don't like the paint job, well, how do you? You can strip paint off fabric and then repaint it. But is it easier to just, or make more sense, just strip all that fabric off too, get a really good look at maybe damage repairs, maybe tubing that's rusted that you just plain couldn't see before. So there's, I mean, I think in case. Obviously my OCD says, yeah, rip every piece of fabric off this thing and make sure everything's good. But when it comes down to dollars and cents, man, I mean you're talking 20 grand to recover this thing at least so this would be a good one to have.
Speaker 2:If it is a clean airframe, this is a good year, good power plant to have on it. I mean engine time, 412 hours. I mean it was overhauled, though, in 1997. So that's kind of getting up there. It's been a while, yeah, it's been a while 412 hours. What are good?
Speaker 1:years and what are not so good years with the dry pastures, I think you want to basically be shooting for anything after 54.
Speaker 2:I'm pretty sure they made a lot of cabin heat improvements. Not a lot. They made cabin heat improvements. That's actually the big one that I remember with the 1954. I want to say 1954. The engine obviously made heat and it just was not effective in the cabin. And then, I believe in 54, they changed it so that it was quite effective.
Speaker 2:What a workhorse though. I mean. My grandparents flew these to the islands for years and just beat the hell out of them basically, and they just took it. And I'm not really a fan of the way they look, I'll be honest with you. But functional reform sometimes I guess they were really well balanced, similar to like the 1979 Archer and Warrior. I always come back to that and it's like when you spend so much time in one airplane or that year because we had a 79 Warrior or 79 Archer, which felt very similar in balance, and then we had an 80, oh, we had two 79 Archers and a 79 Warrior, and then I was flying an 82 Warrior around the same time and I was flying a 85 Archer around the same time and the handling you could definitely group, separate the two groups, the prior to 1980 and then the after 1980.
Speaker 2:Groups and the handling was just, they destroyed them, in my opinion, and it's just balanced and from my understanding these tripacers were all very well balanced, Obviously staying in the CG and stuff. They were easy to keep balanced and they were very nimble and forgiving is what I've been told. I've never flown a tripacer, been in a tripacer. I know my grandparents liked them.
Speaker 1:Grandpa has that on tombstone, doesn't he?
Speaker 2:You said my grandma. My grandma does.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:And almost for that reason alone that those two liked them and they both love tripacers. For that reason alone would be enough for me to maybe seek out an example of one man. This one has quite a panel. Did you look at the panel in this thing? It's got like glass cockpit. It's got an iPad mount in the middle, four flight, a lot of original instrumentation. It's got like two Garmin G5s, it looks like, or something like that.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:That's definitely upgraded panel. Yeah, maybe not the way that you would do it for most people, but I mean he was trying to make it work with him Because they do have a goofy panel. It's raised on one side and lower on the other side and has a manifold pressure gauge which, as most some of you may know, with a constant speed prop, that's when you have a manifold pressure gauge and these old tripacers. I can't see it in this picture per se, but I know it's there over there. I'm on the right side of the panel. It's an odd thing.
Speaker 1:There it is.
Speaker 2:Can you see it? Is that one there? Okay, yeah, I knew it. Oh yeah, okay, because it looked pretty original so I figured it was still there.
Speaker 1:That's weird.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's weird for a fixed pitch prop yeah why?
Speaker 2:Now would it tell you some things? Yeah, if you were going to go experiment, like like a lot of the Super Cub guys, do you know? Look, they'll swap props and they'll, you know, re-re-bend them to. You know, be, okay, it's an 82-44. It's an 82-40, you know. And then you play all these games and seeing manifold pressure can give you some clues as to is this the right prop? You know, I get that, but in this case, I don't I don't understand the point.
Speaker 2:They may have had one back then, I don't know. Yeah, this looks like this might be a pretty good example. I'm not crazy about the scheme, the interior, the side panels and stuff, but man, all that stuff can be labor of love over a course of time. Yeah, globeswift.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah 1949. I've never heard of a Globeswift. What?
Speaker 2:Man.
Speaker 1:You seem to have known know about them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I don't know that much about them. You know they originally had the Continental O300. So it's basically an O200 with another two-cylinder that came out in the 172, originally the Cessna 170, cessna 172. These had them, obviously a lot of these. If you were to look at it. It's a retractable tail wheel, which is a very good thing. I mean, they're not amazing with just the 145 horse O300 on it, but people upgrade them to 180 horse Lyke homing. I guess that they get it pretty good then, but it also have an overall just a strong grange to begin with.
Speaker 1:What is this right here? The?
Speaker 2:vent. That is a. Is it a vent? Is it a vent that is a? It's like a wing, it's a slat, slat, or a slot. In that case, that's a slot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a slot yeah.
Speaker 2:A slot. So as you increase the angle of attack, you now start getting I'm pointing to my screen like you can see it, you start getting airflow through that which reenergizes that boundary layer and stops that the outer whatever the outer outboard section of the wing from stalling. Keeps roll authority and some lift out there, nice. So it's basically right in front of the aileron.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it keeps that aileron effective deep into the stall, and I bet you could go find out from the forums. They'll probably tell me I'm an idiot, but that may, that may allow you to have elevator or roll authority all the way through the stall. I have no idea, but so I could be totally wrong here. So I'm looking down at the data on the engine. This says it has a continental C 125, which is 125 horsepower. I do not know that engine at all. I have no idea what that engine is. So I thought they all had 0300s to begin with, which is 145 horse. They are probably right and I am probably wrong and maybe this is just some of them had this, but that's a 49 is kind of in the year range that I thought. But either way, a lot of guys upgrade them to a higher output Lycoming. If you were to look at this picture, you can see that this would be pretty sweet airplane with a decent amount of power. Do 140, 150 knots? Yeah, I mean, they're kind of like a period.
Speaker 1:It's got a pretty sweet hanger.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's got a pretty good period looking airplane for 1949. It's kind of like what you would expect. Yeah, what do you think about that? Does that kind of fire you up a little bit, or no? No, no.
Speaker 1:That didn't do anything for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just said all that stuff about yeah and they didn't zero. For me, Absolutely zero.
Speaker 1:Well, you're at least knowledgeable enough to understand why someone would like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this does nothing for me, I just. I mean, I love tail wheel and I think they get it pretty good with like 180 horse Lycoming, but those things are not enough to make me want it.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't spend $35,707 on it.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't keep it if you gave it to me.
Speaker 1:No I don't know. If someone gave it to me, I don't know I'd probably try it out for a while. No, that's what this person did.
Speaker 2:They put it, they got given it and they put it right on controller for $35,707. That's what I'd do. It just I get it. There is a, not a demand, but there is a. You know a group. There is a cult like following for these airplanes. Limited market, but I can see how it could be a lot of fun, has some ramp presence and some sex appeal. I do, I do get that. It just it's nothing. And believe me, I like to go fast as much as anybody else and I like things that look like they're going 100 miles an hour sitting. Still, I like all that. They're just something about them that just doesn't. And if you think, transport yourself back to 1949, think what this airplane was rolling up on the ramp in 1949. The person getting out of there was a badass.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:So like for sure you got to think of through the lens of 1949 and that instantly thinking about that makes me think it's cooler a little bit. But for the most part I'm going to walk right on past all of these to look at a junkie J3 cup. That's just me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let me see if I can pull it up here. What is it? Waco? Uh-huh? Yes, I think the great legs were just sweet. Uh-huh, I'd rock one of those. There's some. There's a marketing photo that I saw the other day that this is what you're thinking when you're thinking that just that is like it's got a Swiss flag in the back, but minus the Swiss flag and the goofy tail number, like that's just like Americana pilot Uh-huh, only over in Switzerland right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's a Swiss American. You know what I mean? Yeah, totally, I absolutely.
Speaker 1:Like that's back in the day this airplane was where am I? Was this yeah, no, no, this, Okay, I'm getting, I got.
Speaker 2:I know you got a lot going on over there at the command center. Yeah, yeah, no-transcript. Now, obviously that Waco is brand new, 400 or 500 grand.
Speaker 1:Oh, I would love to, oh, not even close.
Speaker 2:No 700.
Speaker 1:I doubt you could get that great legs for that. I bet you. They're pushing seven, if I had to guess.
Speaker 2:Well, you're at the website there, can't you?
Speaker 1:You don't have prices, no prices at all.
Speaker 2:You can go right to the Piper website and it'll give you prices.
Speaker 1:The reason I was going on this is because they got the Junkers 50.
Speaker 2:A50 that they're making now Junkers.
Speaker 1:Junkers.
Speaker 2:It's spelled junkers. No, it's spelled junkers, but you say Junkers. I'm almost positive. Actually, that's worth a look up, I suppose.
Speaker 1:Okay, no, that's too hard on my head. So this thing.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so okay, this is going. They're selling, like the first I don't know, 30-ish for like some something around.
Speaker 2:Around 200, right.
Speaker 1:I thought I saw Around 200. Like 190 something. Yeah, so I'm pretty sure the Great Lakes is probably double that and the Waco is probably over half a million at least, if not 700, when you option out. I'm just assuming. So you get that Okay, but I'd rock anything that these guys like. This would be cool. A, because it's new. It's got a Rotex on it though.
Speaker 2:I'm out.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm not anti, I'm not anti Rotex, but I'm not going to pay 200.
Speaker 2:200 plus grand, oh 200. That sounds like it should.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know if I'm. I don't know if I'd be willing to pay 200 grand plus for something with a Rotex on it that I may draw the line somewhere in there.
Speaker 2:And it sounds like garbage. I just I light sport.
Speaker 1:I get, well, I get all that. You know what?
Speaker 2:I'm not anti like car engine in an airplane. I'm not anti jet ski engine in an airplane. A P 51 basically has a car engine in it but there was a reduction gearing and that prop was spinning 1900 RPM or something Slow. We don't want a high RPM. We do not want high RPM in airplane engines. Go look at a V 22 Osprey. Those rotors are not spinning. Those things are probably spinning 1300 RPM or something. I don't know what helicopters do, but it's probably slow. How, how, how, what are what's rotor speed on a? Do you know?
Speaker 1:I don't know Okay.
Speaker 2:Slow. I've got it. It's slow, less than five hours Okay, well, that's five more than me. It's slow. You don't want it. From an efficiency standpoint you definitely don't want fast. The most efficient prop we could have is one blade super long, going super slow and have a big counterweight on the other end. And so factor that into all these things we don't want to. Now I know there's reduction gearing and stuff like that that goes through for row taxes and so blade speed is slower by comparison.
Speaker 2:But you have a I don't know if it's that the, the number of cylinders times RPM of the engine, if those things are not quite right to make a more pleasing sound, and I get function over form Absolutely all day long. I just and I appreciate that aspect for sure, but I can't open that hanger door and know that I have that the my dream airplane emits that kind of sound. Is is the only way I can say it. It's just not natural to me because when I think of a lot of the airplanes that you know we were talking the other day radial engines, so distinctive, and if you go to the other end of spectrum, that's row tax. So if I know I like radial, I I don't really see how somebody can really say row tax is a logical progression Myself this is, this is Americana, right here.
Speaker 1:Absolutely that thing sounds great. Oh, you know, this thing sounds great.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, remember we had one of those bass in Sonusky Remember.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, oh, were you ever able to feel it?
Speaker 2:No, he always filled it himself.
Speaker 1:Because he spent 400 grand on it yeah. Now I've I heard very challenging tail wheels to to land.
Speaker 2:I have heard some stories on like the old Waco. My now my grandpa had a Waco UPF seven you want to pull that one up, a UPF seven and he always said it was one of the sweetest airplanes he ever flew. Really, yeah, my dad just got one. Looks just like that blue and yellow one I think I've only seen it a few times in person, so that red one's fine.
Speaker 1:When did your dad get it? A couple of years ago. Okay, nice.
Speaker 2:I've never, I've just he just fly it around for fun. Yeah, See, look how wide that landing gear base is on that blue one If you go hold that up next to a Stearman kind of that quintessential, you know biplane that everybody's familiar with, and and it's a lot smaller than a Stearman too, which is kind of weird, but it's smaller and the the wheel base is so wide. By comparison it's a lot more forgiving. But even still, by people who are used to flying around a Champ or a J3, it's just not as forgiving. I like that blue one.
Speaker 1:This is great looking.
Speaker 2:I tell you why I take that blue one right there. I even like that paint scheme, I definitely like the blue, and I'd yank those wheelpans off and I'd fly the dog shit out of that thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean wheelpans. I function reform. I like that.
Speaker 2:But I think with see it's open cowl already in this picture, I would take that. I would, oh yeah, keep the cowl off, take those wheelpans off and be like I'm going to use and abuse this thing yeah.
Speaker 1:What do you think of?
Speaker 2:that? What do you think of the open cowl? Look and stuff.
Speaker 1:I like the open cowl. Look, they just run an open cowl like that. Why not?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can. I mean I'm sure there is a speed and performance hit. Now see, this one's got a wood prop in this picture. So now we're talking back to that same. I mean I get the wood prop, I would have to go metal prop, I might have to go constant speed. I just can't sign off on man. That's just me. That looks like an amazing. There is something, what's up?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like that. This is almost like based off of that, like this new one they're built.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, look at the difference in the tail, though I mean that new one has a much different tail design to it. Yeah, I mean, I'd rock a brand new one, but I'd want to see, see, look how much cowl that has, and those wheelpans. I'd take all that stuff off myself.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, look at these wheelpans. These are the new one. I'm seeing the picture of the old one right now, but yeah, that's the new one, it's the one.
Speaker 2:Okay, but do you go? You can get those with as much glass in them as you want. So how much glass do you put in it? Cockpit wise.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'd have an IFR certified.
Speaker 2:Oh man, you're killing me. You have IFR certified by. What you want. How about floats? I'll put some floats on this bad boy. What? What does it say? What sizes are I?
Speaker 1:don't know if I do the flow, as as much as I love floats, I don't know if I put them on a walk.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're never going to see another one. I don't know. Think about that. You're never going to see another one.
Speaker 1:I had to yeah.
Speaker 2:All right.
Speaker 1:I feel like if it was like my only, like one of my few airplanes, I might, but if, like, if I had other legit stuff I could use for sea plane apps, like if I had a 206 on an amphibious floats, I would not put them on my Waco.
Speaker 2:But what if you had them on your Waco first? Somehow you got given hold on, let's put it this way, you were given oh, I would rock this so hard. And then when you go by your 206, that's gotta be a $700,000 plus. Oh, with the floats, yeah, I would have had a $200,000 set of floats.
Speaker 1:Whatever they're using, I guess I don't know, are those wind lines.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I don't know. I was hoping you could maybe click or find it on there because I'm beyond curious at this point.
Speaker 1:I was looking pretty intensely at Waco's aircraftcom a couple of weeks ago for that, among some other stuff, and I couldn't find that.
Speaker 2:All right, so let me, let me, let me pose this question to you. You win in a sweepstakes a that Waco with those floats. Oh, I'm keeping the floats on to that point, okay, but the real question is you were going to, next week, put an order in for a Cessna 206. Do you still get the floats? See what I mean.
Speaker 2:Well, that's if you already have that, you can't sell it. You are married to that Waco somehow, but now you still need something to go somewhere or whatever. You know what. You want more than two, two people Now in that Waco, ymf five. You can put two people in the front, so it is a three person airplane. But you want to do more than that. You want to take four or five, six people. Do you still do the two of six on floats on amphibes?
Speaker 1:I probably still do two of six on floats. If I had, I had a plan to get back and forth from South Florida to Northern Ohio. If you. I didn't have a plane that was good for doing that. I'd probably just use the two of six. I wouldn't want floats on it because I would just kill your time even more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, kill everything, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, but if I had another plane that could do that better than a 206 without floats, I would throw floats on a 206 as well as that.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So living down South Florida here, yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff you can do with a couple of sea planes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean the Waco with the floats is kind of a kind of makes it pointless. But also, I mean you want to talk about like an airplane you go somewhere, everybody will go, look at that plane.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, oh yeah, you're never going to go anywhere and see you have another one, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I don't know if that's enough, if that concept there is enough to give me that pride and ownership, when the lines of it are just so beautiful without the floats Like maybe the floats almost destroy it. I don't know, I don't know, not that it's ever going to be a factor for me, but I just have this thing that right now I'm thinking I just don't want two nights of an airplane ever, because then all I do is worry.
Speaker 1:Oh, I want. If I just had one, I'd worry. I'd like to have something that's like exceptional that I don't fly that often. Fair weather, flying only.
Speaker 2:Well, that Waco certainly would do that for you.
Speaker 1:But IFR though really. Oh yeah, why? Because I just I love instrumentation.
Speaker 2:All right. More info, the better Basic VFR for me oh. I don't know Really Something like an option to Super Cub.
Speaker 1:I mean, if I had one option like that, I would love flying it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm with you See. Yeah, that's how I'm talking about those steam gauges. Oh, there you go.
Speaker 1:Nice action shot.
Speaker 2:That's a great shot, all right, moving on. Nobody knows what we're talking about.
Speaker 1:Nope, this is a guanrumblecom.
Speaker 2:Oh, is it Flash for aim? Oh, okay, I didn't know how you were supposed to know.
Speaker 1:This episode is a lot better with the video component link in the show description below. If you're listening to this on audio, this is one that's probably definitely worth going over to the video one. This we have a SESN 150. For 37,000, they're asking for a 74. I mean, I wouldn't choose that color and stuff, but it looks like it's got new paint, which is good.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Interior still very rough and it looks like it is. Where did I see?
Speaker 2:it.
Speaker 1:It's over TBO. It's over.
Speaker 2:TBO.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh yeah, 2100 cents major overall. So the engine shot on it.
Speaker 2:So you're paying 37 grand and then you instantly have to put 20 grand on the engine, if you can even do an 0200 for 20 grand anymore. So that's a 57, but it still runs strong. That's what it says in the. Even though the engine is over TBO, it still runs strong. This aircraft would be a good time builder. Yes, but you instantly. It's 300 hours over TBO. The 0200 is on an 1800 hour engine. It has 2100 hours on it. So not to mention what's the insurance going to say. If there's ever anything that happens with that engine and you park it in a field or you do whatever, what's the insurance going to say you ran it over TBO.
Speaker 1:Are you flying? Why are you even flying this?
Speaker 2:So yeah, all things to consider, but I mean this yes, 37 to buy an engine or an airplane that you have to picture doesn't have an engine bolt to the front of it, Because that engine, like you've said, is shot, it instantly needs to come off and get sent out. Or you need to buy another one to swap out and whatever, do your thing.
Speaker 1:It's worth whatever the core is worth on something like that. Yeah, it's a running core at that point.
Speaker 2:Right and I mean this is not a high time but it's not low time. So I mean I don't think it was too used and abused as a trainer, but 5400 hours I mean overall. Yeah, it wouldn't be my choice. It's pretty original in terms of interior, exterior. Maybe exterior was repainted basically to the original. It looks definitely Scheme, yeah, but which I mean looks okay in these pictures. But I mean I would just factor in that overhaul being 20 grand right now. So this is basically a $60,000 Cessna 150.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was well for Scott's plane.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I mean, yeah, the more of these that are out there, the more it helps him. We shouldn't say that too loud. It might give him ideas to sell.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, we don't want him selling. No, none of us will have an airplane.
Speaker 2:Right, man, I'm, I'm, I do it won't? It won't be too long, man, I'm hoping. I'm hoping 2025 or so, I don't know what I'm getting, but won't be anything that fun. But the 172.
Speaker 1:So this is the cheapest 172 we've seen.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's true. Yeah, this is the first one, 37,226.
Speaker 1:It's obviously converted from Canadian dollars. Yeah, it's like I'm not excited about it.
Speaker 2:What's that?
Speaker 1:I said I'm not super excited about it Well, the 172. I mean for that price point to I don't know in this market.
Speaker 2:So this, this is not old but it's not new. This is pretty close to when they went from the straight tail 172s to the to. You know this more swept tail that we're more used to now. This has the 0300 on it, I believe. Yes, it does, cause you can look. If you were to look at a a nose on shot, you can see it has two widely spaced exhaust stacks. And another telltale sign If you don't have that, which was my first giveaway, is they all tend to have a different spinner than than most. Those 0300, uh, continental do 0300. So it's a 145 horsepower. This one looks like it may have a climb prop on it.
Speaker 2:Um, I think it was so in the old 300s. I don't want to bash it. They're, from my understanding, a very smooth running engine. They don't. I mean, it's kind of a, you know, 145 horse. So maybe a little underpowered um can compare to most. But you have to remember these old airframes are much lighter than the new ones. There was less sound deadening, there was less just, uh, the the poultry just was not as robust and built on, you know, opulence. Um, the equipment was more sparse. The airframes just tend to be lighter back in the day. So if you were like really being nerd like I do, and get out your calculator and be like, okay, this is my horsepower, this is my basic empty weight, or whatever, and start doing you know horsepower per pound, you know power to weight ratio, basically this won't fare as as bad as you would think it would, even though, like a new one, is 160, 180 horse and this is only 145,. They don't fare as bad as you would think they would, just because the airframes are so light.
Speaker 2:I'm just scrolling through pictures here, it's got kind of a lot of equipment that probably all that stuff I just said might not be accurate because it's got a bunch of old radios and stuff in it. So this one would need basically some gutting and some radios. It's kind of old ADF and you know which, almost useless. Well, not almost it is. Maybe that's not an ADF, I don't know what that is, but it needs to go. Maybe it is an.
Speaker 1:ADF when.
Speaker 2:All the way to the far right. I can't tell what that thing is. It's got a navcom, a KX170B navcom, which people are probably familiar with. Um, it's still got scrolly digits, so it's very old school, but they work really good and then like a KX76 or KT76. You're talking about this right here. Yeah, that guy there. Yeah, I can't. It looks like an ADF to me, I know but I don't see the actual radio head for that.
Speaker 1:No, they don't show it.
Speaker 2:And they may have taken that out and left that in. I have no idea. But yeah, it looks like an ADF to me, but looks big and it's old. That means it's heavy, so that means we need to get rid of it, in my opinion. So just things to consider. But yeah, this would be probably not bad for a time builder. What do we look at? Engine specs, all right. So no, look at this one this way over. Tbo 2165, even worse than the last one. So, and even if that wasn't the case, it was overhauled in 1986. So those two components right there.
Speaker 2:this is. I mean at least there's some airframe value in this one, unlike the 150. There's some airframe value here. So I would I mean you're still paying basically 60 grand for this airplane, but you got a four place airplane. So in the other talk we were looking at a $60,000 150 a second ago. So this, this is dramatically much more in the ballpark. I would still say it's high. Yeah, yeah, this I mean. Yeah, you got to talk them down at least 10. Yeah, what do you have that?
Speaker 1:That shot motor yeah.
Speaker 2:Which I mean I suppose I would probably stick with this motor, this 0300. But yeah, you definitely need to get overhauled.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Man that's people are just getting rid of their. Getting rid of the plane instead of overhaul yeah.
Speaker 2:Because they didn't budget these costs. That's why I go crazy about these spreadsheets, because these things sneak up on you, you know, and even if you can keep going along and building hours with it over TBO, that's fine and that can happen, but you have you take to the wrong mechanic one time, not the wrong mechanic, but a mechanic that is like your compression you got. You need to, you need to top overhaul this at the least, and even though, yeah, it's not a full overhaul, that is still significant expense that you weren't budgeting for. Oh, yeah, you need to budget as though you're so like, let's say how do I say it, because this is kind of weird context, this is something I always used to say You're either paying for the original or paying for its replacement. You never stop saving. So like, let's say, you get a car and you pay it off, you've got to keep basically saving that same monthly payment or some concept of this, because eventually that car is going to be used up and then, when you go and need a new one, you have a pile of money where you buy the new one with. So, just because you don't owe the bank anything for that engine, for that airframe, whatever, you need to keep budgeting and building up that, that engine reserve. So when you do need a new one which hopefully is later rather than sooner, but you don't know that compression can be a surprise Well, seem to run fine when I brought it in here.
Speaker 2:Shouldn't be, you know, shouldn't be a problem. Well, it's. Yeah, it's 50 over 80 on all four cylinders and it's like well, now, what do I do? You know what's the reason? What am I going to have to do to give myself confidence in this engine again? Is that just the top overall? I know that's what they're saying, that's all I need, but I put my family in this airplane. What is going to give me confidence in this engine again? That's something I think needs to be definitely given some thought. Yep.
Speaker 1:I've got a 1966 Piper Cherokee. I'll figure we'll end this list up here. When we get to the bottom of this page, we won't click next again. Okay, but this is certainly one that you know a little bit about. Looks like it's just asking $37,986.
Speaker 2:It's up in Canada.
Speaker 1:Let's go straight to the 1862.1 since major overall. This is less than 200 hours out from needing an overhaul. Yeah, so I mean that's in the grand scheme of things. It's not as bad as the other ones, but you're basically looking at a new engine here pretty soon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in the engine notes here it says 485 hours since the top overall, meaning they just did cylinders and then they did the 160 horsepower conversion which changed it from an O3, troni, e2d which was common back then I believe that's a narrow deck engine to an E3D. That's the 160 horse conversion. These 140, 150, 160 horsepower. Oh no, I'm sorry, e2d would have been a 150. Yeah, Whatever. Yeah, I don't know shit, but these old Cherokees I'm just not a fan of. They are light, they are pretty balanced. I don't like the steering. I think the steering is too dirty. The one I fly it's 180 horse, but it's a 1966, just like this.
Speaker 2:And I tell you what man you know flying. When I fly for a day job and you go get in this thing, I mean the steering is very dirty but they are nimble. They are well balanced, they are, relatively speaking, fun to fly and the part of weight ratio is good I wish this one had. Does this one have any weights to it? No, I don't see. These are just like I was talking about with that other 172. These later ones they're just light. I mean the basic empty weight on these is just so light compared to the numbers people are used to thinking about.
Speaker 2:Now. You know you're probably saving just a shot in the dark. You're saving probably 100 and 150 pounds. Where all that comes from, I don't know and maybe just feels like it's that much lighter. But I don't remember offhand what ours is, but I definitely know it's lighter than average it was. It's roughly the same weight. The 180 horse Cherokee that I fly from 1966 is roughly the same weight as the 1979 warrior that I did a lot of my original flight instructing in. So now you're talking 160 horse and now it's got 180 horse, but it weighs the same.
Speaker 2:Typically when you graduate from a warrior to an archer and gain that horsepower, you gain some weight as well. Just an interior appointments, instruments year. Whatever, you end up gaining weight while you gain the horsepower. In this case, you've gained the horsepower without gaining the weight and it's a very good performer. Um, actually, the other day I was coming. I had a double trip to the island. I did one trip dropped off, my in-laws went back to get my wife and kids. On the way back I was doing 151 knots ground speed in 180 horse Cherokee. I know people see stuff like that all the time. I was at 3000 feet. I mean that was booking. I was impressed, rob. You don't see none impressed, tailwind.
Speaker 1:I just think there's a tailwind.
Speaker 2:There is a tailwind, but a 30 knot tailwind at 3000 feet. In the summer that's not super normal, but okay, okay, rob, now it's more like a 40 knot, because that's only like 112 knot airplane at down low, that's okay.
Speaker 1:This was I don't know. I don't think I'm excited over that one.
Speaker 2:I see that. I see that.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to see.
Speaker 2:I'm going to grab a beer.
Speaker 1:Okay, grab it. 2021 Vans RV 9 alpha with no photo, but it's $40,000.
Speaker 2:What's that?
Speaker 1:2021 Vans RV 9 alpha it's $40,000. No photo.
Speaker 2:So 9A means it has a nose gear. A straight nine would be a tail wheel.
Speaker 1:So Scott would say they put the gear in the right spot. Is the A?
Speaker 2:Okay, I don't agree with him tails, old time in Los medical, while building an RV 9 a now must sell empanage. So the tail and fuselage partial assembled, wing kit in crates. So You're building yeah, I mean you're finishing the rest, the airplane. This is probably the trifecta of suck when it comes to buying an airplane you have to not only Inspect the work that the original person has done, but now you got to build the rest of it as well. And yeah, and maybe I guess, maybe not the trifecta, that'd be the by-fecta but you have to maybe redo some of the work they did. You got to figure out where they left off, what exactly the steps were, kind of around there, and backtrack and make sure they did the, at least figure out where they stopped, exactly where they stopped.
Speaker 1:This is. No thanks. It's one of those things where it's potentially a good deal If, like you or somebody who is just You've been researching building an RV 9a for years now, yeah, and it's just a little bit out of your price range. You it's just the money holding you back, and and then this pops up. Maybe that's like, oh my gosh, this is a better price and a little bit of the work's done for me already. Maybe you instantly look at it and know what's going on, because I've been researching this.
Speaker 1:Yeah like extensively the past few years. Yeah, that's, that's. That's who's potentially buying this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe in a nine and I'm kind of out of the loop with the van stuff Recently. I know there are some new models but I'm not up on all the different ones. But a nine would be a great one. You know it's not the hardcore aerobatic and stuff. It's more of a Land slow, cruises, fast, comfortable, you know it's got longer wings, it's more docile. Side by side it's like an RV six but geared more for an RV seven. Rather a six would have been the older one, but an RV seven that's geared a lot more for cruising. It's like the GT variant. Right, it's a grand tour, not like a track. You know Skelpel, you know it's a lot more docile. Handling is a lot more, from my understanding, just forgiving. You know it's not made to go do hardcore aerobatics but they cruises fast the other ones but they have nice long wings. I believe that up the shave is a little bit off the the stall speed. They're just more Efficient with the longer wings, you know aspect ratio and all that kind of stuff, but just a lot, of, a lot better for cruising.
Speaker 2:Rv nine that would that would be a tough one to pass up. I don't like that. It's got the. Well, I'm not into this whole kit thing. Anyways, you're building in half-assembly. I figure out where you are, figure out and make sure they did it right and you got to finish the rest. I'm just not into it. But a nine if we're just talking about buying Vans, rvs, nine would be a tough one to pass up. Not an a, I wouldn't do an a but.
Speaker 2:I.
Speaker 1:I just wouldn't be into it. If I'm not, I have to build.
Speaker 2:If I'm building something, I want to build it all the way through well, if I'm building one of these, I want to go to the Factory and build it with. Somebody builds them all day long. That's what I want to do.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and come back two or three weeks later with a perfectly basically a factory airplane, you know. Yeah, 1946 a ronka 7ac champ.
Speaker 2:That's a good-looking airplane of the ones that we have seen. As much as I have dist on champs here in this episode. Other than the 2j3s, for maybe 22 each, this is this is this is the one that I'm that I'm taking home so far you see, even the guy in the hangar.
Speaker 1:He's looking over at it. Well, he knows a photo is being taken. He's just like I can't keep my eyes off it.
Speaker 2:Is that what he's doing? Sit in front of his t6 Texan Looks good. I mean. I think the paint job is nice and understated. Others is stoppery in the back of the hangar. Oh yeah, looks like a good prop is on here. I'm sure there won't be any details. Man, you, when you look at the interior shots of these champs, just look, and I think it's the way they took this picture makes it look like extra wide angle. But, man, I mean you can just see the difference in the space you have in this versus a j3. I mean is just oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean it looks like a bench seat, looks like two people sit there, and I think it's the angle that they took, this or whatever that. However, they did it.
Speaker 1:But it's still the. Why don't? The satabrias are comfortable. I've never been a champ.
Speaker 2:It's the same same thing, same concept.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean there just a gentleman's airplane right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they got an oleo strut. You know where the J3 has the bungee cords. You know there's actually like rubber bands and the landing gear, and that's true of a lot of even the tripacers, that's true of a lot of them. They don't have a spring steel gear like so many people are used to. They have an oleo strut. These old champs will champs, have an oleo strut, so it can be a little bit discounted. The first time I flew a champ I, just like I had no idea what to expect, is a little windier that day, probably shouldn't have flown it, especially without any. Nobody checked me out.
Speaker 1:I air flying time in it.
Speaker 2:Nobody checked me out in it. Yeah, dude's like I just gonna take it around like okay, you.
Speaker 1:You out of anybody I know, except for maybe other people with your same last name have just Jumped in so many planes with no training. Just the others are like oh yeah, take it for a spin if you. Yeah your last name is Griffin. It'll be fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, right, right, yeah, and I mean it was. You know, I did two or three landings with it and it was. It was different. It was definitely a different feel to the landing versus the directness, the firmness of the J3. When that gear is down in the J3 it is planted like there's no slop in it. There's some shock absorption, but that's it. You're very directly connected with this. They were kind of like stages and To the landing. You know you're rolling on the tire but then you're collapsing. That oleo strut that some people are familiar with, with pipers and whatnot, and most, most airplanes have oleo struts, just not back. You know, these types of things, these, I mean these champs are a good bang for the buck. Now, this one at 41.5, not so good bang for the buck, but it does seem to be a really nice example. This one says has an 0200.
Speaker 1:I don't mind that engine, same one as I had before.
Speaker 2:The 0200 be a great engine for that ice, ice maker, but yeah, well, so with the C85, or this one originally came with a 65, I believe, and those all make ice just like an 0200.
Speaker 1:Yeah, higher time motor 1551 since major. Has an electrical system.
Speaker 2:I'd yank that Electric start, yank that, yank the radio.
Speaker 1:I keep pulling this photo up right here, it's just.
Speaker 2:Well, it's that American flag, man, it's an American flag.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, that that's awesome, obviously, but then it's right next to the Satabria there and you just like, my eye just keeps Gravitating. I'm looking at the Satabria the whole time, even though you can hardly see it back here, satabria.
Speaker 2:I mean, if you get the 0 235, which probably most people wouldn't want to do, they want the power, a Satabria would be awesome. Yeah, you go get a 160 horse Satabria. That answer you know. I mean, I think those do like 130 miles an hour, which is like Probably hundred and eleven hundred and ten knots. I wish I was better at math. I.
Speaker 1:Would. I would consider owning a Satabria. I just I like them. One thirteen that was my second guess. I Like those planes.
Speaker 2:Yeah dude.
Speaker 1:All right, let's continue on through the list fire away. Try to get to the end of the first page and wrap this up. And who know? 150, 1972. Let's see what the stats are.
Speaker 2:Real quick on this and this takes a long time to get. Make sure we're not 3400, that's not bad. No total time. Yep, yep, oh 1800.
Speaker 1:Since mm-hmm. What's SCMOH? Where's?
Speaker 2:that, oh, since complete major overall Does, I haven't, doesn't matter how thorough it was.
Speaker 1:It was 1800 hours ago.
Speaker 2:But it was complete. Oh, canada, oh, since Canadian major overall, maybe I'm, I don't know, it's special. They do think special up there, I don't know special over Canadian over.
Speaker 1:Because that looks beautiful wherever it is hangered.
Speaker 2:Yes, that does look like a good spot. It looks like a nice quality hanger too. But yeah, what I don't understand.
Speaker 2:So if you look at the engine, here it says continental and that says engine horsepower 134.1. I Don't know I'm looking up at I don't see. It says with a strong engine. Here it is a low time, 150 L with a strong engine, like Do you put the thing in a dyno? Or I mean engine is running strong also under 70 80. I have no idea why they put engine horsepower there. It doesn't make any sense. I don't know if that, who knows?
Speaker 2:yeah but um 3400, 1800 hour. We're running the same problem with everything. They want 42 grand for the airplane as it sits and you got to put an engine on it in 200 hours, if not immediately. It's an it's in Calgary, so for most of you know we're gonna put 100 hours on it just getting it home wherever you live in the United States. So it's like, yeah, in like half of the country got to fly across some form of Rockies.
Speaker 1:I'm looking yeah, I'm looking at how they they're going in in depth about all the motor stuff, saying how great it is, even though it's got 800 motor. I'm thinking like, okay, so all of that means I, like, can probably get it back to somewhere when they're gonna do a major over exactly, yeah, right, we're right.
Speaker 2:I can hopefully Get it home. That would be great, I.
Speaker 1:Love to Canada, this Canada. Any numbers in their tail numbers they have up here to help see Charlie, golf, zulu, alpha, kilo. Yeah, they have the phonetic alphabet of their tail number just because it's.
Speaker 2:Where I didn't. I don't see that. Where is it at?
Speaker 1:It's over. If you look at the screen here, it's on the top. Oh Wow, on the panel.
Speaker 2:They actually have it spelled out what to say?
Speaker 1:Wow Well what a pain in the butt compared to us tail numbers they got to do up there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that would be terrible. That would be terrible.
Speaker 1:I get depending on the letter combo. It's kind of a pain the butt For me to say two letters.
Speaker 2:Well, so so here's. Here's a fact. As far as I know, all Canadian airplanes Start with CG or CF. So they're all Charlie golf, zulu alpha kilo in this case, or Charlie Foxtrat, zulu alpha kilo. The first two are always either Either CG or CF, as far as I know. So you could probably get away with Zulu alpha kilo most of the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I don't know. I like Preferably all numbers.
Speaker 2:I like having a letter, but yeah, all right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is a pass Out of the ones we've seen, even though it needs a new engine because they all need new engines. This is the lowest time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:This is the only one that's not over major. So if I had to choose between the three to then put a bunch more money into to make my dream 150, probably the one I'd choose, but not saying it's a great buy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think it is. But I mean also, I am old school, I'm thinking of what prices were. I mean I got to face reality and be like. Airplanes I don't want cost more than I can afford. That's just the way it is. All the airplanes that I do not like are more than I can afford. So when we finally get to the airplanes that I do like, it is completely out of the question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's. The goal of this was to try to get to see the price range of where we were. When we started to see stuff we actually thought was sweet. We're not there yet.
Speaker 2:We're not there yet. No, we're not even close. Yeah right, exactly Now. I haven't looked ahead, so I don't know what's coming next, so I don't know what the next. Yeah, we're on the Grumman now, but this Grumman American, but I don't know what comes after this. I'm just taking it as it comes, but Nope.
Speaker 1:We're at $43,500 with this 1971 Grumman American General AA1A.
Speaker 2:I believe that had what's called a Grumman. There were several versions of this that are basically all very similar and I don't know the differences, but there's a Grumman traveler and a Grumman Yankee and I don't know what all the oh. They got LEDs on it, apparently.
Speaker 1:That's a first. If you're watching a video, it's inside the hangar in the dark with the lights on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like the first time you got a lightsaber that lit up when you were a kid and you had to go into the bathroom, close the door with all the lights off and swing that thing around. Yep, that's what they just did there.
Speaker 1:Yep Spins are prohibited.
Speaker 2:What's that Spins?
Speaker 1:Spins are prohibited in this aircraft.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what do we got on time though? 878, since major. It's got a 2000-hour TBO. I believe this has an 0235, just like the traveler and the Yankee, and somebody can correct me if I'm wrong it's got the ADS-B out. So I mean and these are pretty quick all things considered, I ferried one of these back in the day but it had 100. So it's a two-place airplane, I believe this is If I'm accurate at all on what I'm saying. It is a two-place, but I can't find a picture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Anyways, I think it's two-place. I believe it's a two-place. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:Okay, I mean they're kind of small. I don't know what the gross weight and all that stuff is off hand, but they're pretty small. They're in the realm of like 1700, 1800, maybe 1650, 1600 for the max takeoff weight. But the one I ferried had 160 horse on it, so it was basically like the 150-150 concept 150 horsepower system 150.
Speaker 2:But these are a lot more aerodynamic than a system. 150 is this thing? I don't remember off hand, but it climbed pretty good not as good as you would think, but pretty good. And you know what? Here's another one. I'd never flown one of these either, Didn't even get checked out. Guy sent me over there to bring it home, Just went and ripped it, you know.
Speaker 1:I mean, if I was sending somebody to pick up some random plane to fly back for, I'd probably choose you out of the people I know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so I did, but that was one of my stories where. So where was this one? Out of Somewhere in Eastern New York? And I took a GPS with me and there was like an old grayscale like a Garmin 195, 196. I don't know which one was grayscale or which one was, it doesn't really matter, but I had two of them. I had mine and then the backup that was in the plane, which obviously would have been questionable to begin with. Neither one of them worked. I don't remember why, but neither one of them worked. There was an outdated sectional in the plane and I used a sectional to get back from which isn't that far Eastern New York, to Ohio, North Central Ohio, not that big of a deal, but you don't want to bust the airspace.
Speaker 1:You told this story on the show before. Yeah, they'll always keep a sectional with you. This type of airplane. This was the airplane.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this type of airplane is what I was flying when I came back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, out of everything we've seen, this doesn't seem like a bad buy, especially if you like Ukraine.
Speaker 2:Especially if I like. What Ukraine? Why the blue and yellow? The Ukrainian flag colors?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you think this one would be selling like hotcakes right now? Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was a former Ukrainian trainer, just get rid of the red and white stripe on the tail, yeah. And the spinner, the red spinner. You don't want that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean these are definitely the Grummans. I mean that's not my cup of tea, but they certainly like. If you were like back in the day you'd get like a late 70s Grumman Tiger or whatever. That'd be kind of the equivalent to a Piper Archer. I mean they're doing like 10 knots faster on the same horsepower. They're both tricycle gear, fixed gear, fixed pitch, all that stuff, but they're getting 10 knots out of it. I mean that's kind of cool that they eat that much out of it on the same horsepower.
Speaker 1:I just I think I'm biased against them because every single one I've ever seen been in or flown has just been ratted out, and this is obviously I'm going to the interior right now is no exception to this rule. I found I feel like, in theory, hypothetically, if it was like a totally plush thing, maybe I'll have a different opinion on Grumman, but just every single one of them I've ever been exposed to has been rough around the edges or more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't know why that is. I mean it just doesn't make sense. I mean the people that I know that have had them. Like it's such a they're into it, like they're into, like oh yeah. Okay, I got a four place airplane that was cheap and goes 10 knots faster than a Piper Archer. That does all the same stuff, but we do 10 knots faster. They're into all that stuff and they buy into it, but just somehow they just don't really update them at the same pace as people update other stuff like other aircraft types. Yeah, it just yeah. It does kind of boggle the mind a little bit. I don't know, I wouldn't be happy to see one in my hanger, so I don't think I think it's a pass. That one's a pass for me as well.
Speaker 1:I would pass on it personally.
Speaker 2:All right next.
Speaker 1:This is the 1976 system 150, which is the exact same year model of my previous airplane, yes 44.5. So this is somewhat Stuart, South Florida here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 9,000 hours of total time on it.
Speaker 2:Total time 1100 cents or 711 since major overhaul by popular growth. That's a reputable engine shop so I can certainly appreciate that it's a pass just by airframe time. Now, if we're thinking kind of the way we started out, the kind of the premise is you've made the decision that you want to basically buy an airplane, build your time in and then move on and you're not the type of person who will form an attachment or has that pride and joy, or it doesn't start out as your pride and joy but before you know it is your pride and joy and then you're whatever. If you're not at risk of any of that, this is not an airplane to. If you're easily susceptible, correct me, tell me what you think about this.
Speaker 2:Rob, correct me if I'm wrong. If you are the type of person who is susceptible to, it's my first airplane, so it's automatically my pride and joy, even if it's a piece of shit. This is not the airplane to buy. If you can stay detached and build your time so you can go to the airlines or get your commercial because you need the 250 hours or you know you want to go through Fast Track and build that time and you want to buy this and it's got impeccable logbooks, which it probably does, then I'm okay with it. Where are you at? What do you think, rob?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you could probably buy this thing, throw 500 hours on it and get out of it not to unscathed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I think you got maybe 900 hours that you want to put on this thing because you probably want to be getting rid of this thing before it's got 10,000 on it for a bunch of reasons. There's obviously the psychological impact of it rolling over 10,000 hours when you go to sell it. There's something about that. 9,000 is astronomical to me. None of my dream airplanes this side of a Dehevelin Beaver have 9,000 hours on it that I would entertain buying Now in a King Air, in a citation in a jet a transport jet 9,000 hours is typical. You're flying longer legs. I mean, that's what they're designed to do In these airplanes. 9,000 hours at 100 miles an hour is like I don't know 50 billion light years.
Speaker 1:Imagine the amount of landings from students on this thing.
Speaker 2:If you think now, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of cross-country time, but oh man.
Speaker 1:How many people since 1976 have botched a landing learning how to land on this thing?
Speaker 2:Countless. If we think so, at 4,500 hours of that, I don't even know how to do this. Yeah, that's one. I mean you probably have between 50 and 60 thousand landings on that thing.
Speaker 1:No, I was gonna say average of. I would just say double the time by 20,000 landings at least.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know, are you basically?
Speaker 1:you got time when you're going up doing maneuvers and stuff and then obviously when you're back in the pad or doing some of those hours.
Speaker 2:All right. So how many landings you think you can get in an hour? If that's what you're doing is just take off landings, Then you get one every tenth of an hour.
Speaker 1:I'd say seven landings an hour seven landings.
Speaker 2:If you got, if you got a clear, it's not a busy airport, you got so I took the airframe time divided by two said 4500, and I just times that by 10, which is 45,000. Okay, so you're gonna do a time seven. Okay that's 31 five.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're probably right, it's fine and either way, yeah, that's what you're looking at when you look at that now.
Speaker 2:It's a simple airframe spring steel gear, obviously very, very forgiving and all you're gonna do it's again. We are talking about it from a pride and joy standpoint. That was like our Initial like thing was like if you can stay detached and you're just gonna put a heart landings on it, just like everybody else did, and build up to 800, 900 hours on it and then try and get rid of it before it hits 10,000, do it. This is a greater. I mean 44. Five is expensive, but you only got 700 on the overhaul, which means you have another thousand hours from an engine standpoint that you can put on it and be Confident. You know that it's gonna be okay. Should be confident, obviously, if everything continues to check out, obviously all the normal stuff right.
Speaker 2:But yeah from an airframe standpoint. The total time in the airframe You're at nine, so you have a little bit of a mismatch. You know you want to probably go by the airframe time. Well, you have a little bit of engine time but, with all that being said, 44, 5 the way I think about it, that seems steep with having this kind of airframe time. But what do I know? I know somebody just sold one for 45 grand and it had a Probably maybe 150 hours on an overhaul. 150 hours on an overhaul Called 200 on the high side it wasn't 200, but let's call it 200 hours in the overhaul and 6,000 hours on the airframe, sold for 45.
Speaker 1:So that would have been a better buy than this would have been a better buy.
Speaker 2:Newer paint, good paint, yeah, yeah, lots of, lots of you know, I don't know, and this being a newer one is nice, because the other one was scatter panel, because it was a 68 or something. But I mean, there's some give-and-take, but if you're just gonna beat this up like everybody else did, probably fine. 44, 5 is maybe a bit more than I, than I would spend for that reason, but that's all. Hey, I'm gonna go to ATP, I'm gonna do an embryo or whatever, and you start looking with those costs per hour. That obviously starts shifting you towards this making more sense. But that's a. If you're gonna go to a local Other flight school and spend those, that money on those hours, that that would probably shift back towards more.
Speaker 2:Just spend the money at the flight school. You know, if you're just trying to get through, you know private, instrument, commercial or something. But if you're talking, you're going somewhere and you're spending $250 an hour and all that kind of stuff, this, this can make sense Because, remember, you don't, you're not, you're yeah, 44, 5, that's what the bank is gonna loan, is gonna loan you, and you make the payment To the bank. You can only pay if you're trying to build 500 hours of flight time and You're just gonna fly this thing. You're making a monthly payment, regardless of the hours you put on it, so Obviously have to recoup your money.
Speaker 2:I think everybody sees where I'm going with this. I don't know how to articulate it correctly, but you're not gonna pay the whole 44 5. You know what I mean? Yeah, you're responsible for when you go to sell it, but if you could be close to you see what I'm saying around, you know what I'm trying to say. Like you didn't have 44 5 in the bank and you dropped it on this plane, the bank did. So you're gonna pay X number, like it cuz.
Speaker 1:I don't like that well of course I get that.
Speaker 2:I know you're saying, yeah, you're gonna spend two years, three years worth of payments on this not 44,000, 500 dollars worth of payments, but two, three years of it and Then, if you can get close to that, then you can really look at what your cost to accrue those hours was. And it's a lot less than 44 5.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Pass for me, though I wouldn't even entertain it 140 Cherokee 1974 Up in canadia. Did you mind if we change this up. Can we, can we maybe fast scroll? I mean, Okay. I'm going to.
Speaker 1:Zenith. I don't know. I don't know what that is.
Speaker 2:Zenith. Yeah, zen. Air Zenith 96 44,900 low time. I Don't even know if those, I don't know if this is certified. I don't know any of that stuff on these things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is a 1971 sesta 150, 3900. Total time 400 cents. Major okay, 45,000. This is starting to look like a much better deal.
Speaker 2:That's, that's getting better. The paint looks better. Everything looks better on this baby. Yeah, how's our panel? Look, though, I think it's still gonna have a scatter panel. Do you got any? What we got? Yeah, still a little bit. Oh no, yeah, that's pretty much a normal configuration. Yeah, that's, that's get that's getting there terrible.
Speaker 2:That's a little rough. That's a little rougher than I would like, but just depends on what you're, what you're going for, if you are, if, just look at the contrast. This is a. This is a little bit older, but much lower time. You even have more room on the overhaul. That is a much better buy for your time building. You are an extra 500 bucks, yeah, and this is what you can go put some hours on this and turn around and sell what you paid it for. The other one, you're up against the wall on both airframe time and engine time. Can you do it, maybe? This one there's room. This one there's room a lot more confidence getting this one.
Speaker 2:What's that I?
Speaker 1:Would have a lot more confidence purchasing this one over the last one.
Speaker 2:We discovered 150, yeah you can go, but build your 500 hours or whatever on this one. Turn around and sell what you paid for.
Speaker 1:Or if you fall in love with this. This is your first year planning. Keep it forever. You can Do some updates and still be a nice point.
Speaker 2:Point that's true, yep, you can feel free to get attached to this one. The other one you very much so need to go in with the sole express purpose of I'm just gonna beat the shit out of this like everybody else did, like the past 100,000 people have done to it as well. I mean this one here Much, much more of a one you can take home to mama, type thing.
Speaker 1:Yep Another chair Q 140 1966 or 4650. You want to skip that one oh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean ho hum, I don't know the engine time, but Um, that seems like a decent price. It's located in North. Carolina so it's accessible for a lot of people. Yeah, it'd be a consideration that'd be more multi-purpose, not so much just a pure time builder, but it's time builder. I a far trainer, little bit of a commuter, you know if, um, if it happens to stick around longer than you originally thought, oh, For 47,000 we're back at a 1976. Look at the total time. Look at the total time 14,000 hours.
Speaker 2:But it's in Canada, so it's okay, it's going and it's in Canada.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's only it's Canadian time.
Speaker 2:Yes, right, exactly, it's like. It's like metric time, right yeah, it's like kilometers, the miles per hour.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you got a decent headset, at least oh, that's good. The interior is a lot cleaner than the other one.
Speaker 2:Well, clearly it's a flight school airplane and I'd like to think if they were flying it with students, they were making money. You can afford to upkeep it. Yeah, I mean, a lot of stuff we say is kind of tongue-in-cheek because there are high-time airplanes that are meticulously maintained, they're enrolled in a really good, you know, aviation program where they have really really robust maintenance and so like, yeah, you don't want this to be, you don't want to be a person who gets attached this airplane. It's not a ticking time bomb, but its value is just. There's just, there's no two ways about it and I don't think buying it at 47 grand you're never when you turn around. If you paid that which I don't do it, but if you did, you're not gonna get, you're not gonna get 37 grand out of this when you go back, so you can't be the one to spend 47. That's mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's clean, though it's a lot cleaner than the other one.
Speaker 2:Well, I yeah, that's a lot of money for that. Yeah, I mean Not not a chance, not a this is.
Speaker 1:This is one of those. I feel like it's a nice plane. The Owner's just gonna keep it, but like he just puts it on here, if someone's want to give me this, I'll let it go. Yeah, well yeah, yeah, that's true. If not, I'll just keep it right, yeah, yeah, pass, hey.
Speaker 2:That's the end of this first page.
Speaker 1:That's the first page. We were at 47,000 and we have not found an airplane that excites us.
Speaker 2:Yeah so put that in perspective. That is crazy. When you say it that way, that blows my mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yep, yeah, those J3s are interesting. Well, I'm actually gonna keep an eye on those, because I mean look, if you get a chance, call them, call the, whatever you would know, you would know what to ask and stuff, or else I would just do it to do it, but you wouldn't be more informative, I think, on.
Speaker 2:To ask I may, I may call tomorrow. I just want to see what the deal is. I mean, because, like I agree with you, it's some kind of, some kind of legally Sheriff sale thing. I have no idea what, what, what's going on, but there's two of them I mean, it's just, it's odd by the same firm.
Speaker 1:So but what's the same bank? It's the same guy bankruptcy that owns it. I looked it up. He's got a. He's got one of those C-rays to okay and some other plane, it's all the same bankruptcy. That's why the same firm has it, the same client, it's the same dude going bankrupt.
Speaker 2:So the guy going bankrupt has a C-ray as well has a C-ray and a cub on each coast.
Speaker 1:It's the same guy, from what I understand.
Speaker 2:All right. So let's say, I called tomorrow. This dude's like yeah, it's 22 grand. You buying one with me if?
Speaker 1:I'm not quite a physician to oh, that's point but I Would. I would be tempted to try to pull some money together if it was. If it was for that, oh man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, J3.
Speaker 1:I would want the one in Florida, though.
Speaker 2:What's that you want?
Speaker 1:one's nicer than the one in California.
Speaker 2:What if it is you think so?
Speaker 1:And from the photos the one in Florida looks like the nicer than one than like one in.
Speaker 2:California. I'll take the crap you want. I don't care, I'm gonna be a lot crappier when I'm done with it.
Speaker 1:If you find out it's 22,000, I will. I will make a Boy scout attempt to raise that money.
Speaker 2:I have faith in you.
Speaker 1:Put, put that together, yeah that would be a good deal, I feel like oh yeah oh, something seriously wrong with it. That'd be a great deal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, but there's so many people qualified to verify it's, you know, the paperwork, the maintenance. I Mean somebody always knows somebody who can, who has time. I mean, yeah, you may have some expense in air lining somebody that you really trust to actually look at it, but so many people are qualified. And on us and for 22, the engine sitting on the front is worth about that. Core core wise, yeah, not so much, but if it's a low time, chances are that engine is about worth it. That and anything else that could be wrong you can order out of a catalog. Yeah, that's the beauty, j3s man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I'm just gonna make this a two-part episode and and I like this episode even with just you and I yeah, I think if it's Scott on here, or even like a gas. I feel like we could do this semi-frequently, like I don't know. Maybe once a quarter or something.
Speaker 2:Well, like a state of the market. It's like a state of the market, yeah, so yeah, just pull it up here.
Speaker 1:I'm sure Scott was on. We'd be pulling up barnstormers and he'd have barnstormers up.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, craigslist, Facebook marketplace, yeah right, well, I can find this one just fine here for yeah, which is fine If you add more perspective. I think that's true. Yeah, this is one website for this episode. Well, that's also. I mean, that's a really good point, because we could have gone to barnstormers and probably our starting price would have Been cut in half, which sounds crazy to go from 20 and go down to 10. But I bet you on barnstormers if you could sort it like that, I bet you get 10 in less.
Speaker 2:Yeah how I mean. What's his name? Trevor Jacob. Where do you buy? Oh yeah, where do you get that Taylor craft?
Speaker 1:from the parachute expert. I don't know where you bought it from. Yeah, maybe we can do some research on that, yeah, but yeah, I I don't know. I thought this was good. Yeah, I thought this was. We've done a similar little bit of this and, like I remember I edited it. I'm like we could just do a whole show where all we do is just it's more of a video show. Obviously, it's gonna work way better for people watching than Then listening. Hopefully, if you're listening, you get something out of it.
Speaker 1:But hopefully yeah, we, we got the. You can see what we're looking at. Hopefully, as long as all the software worked correctly and recorded that properly, how it should have, you can see exactly what we're looking at in real time while you watch with. Watch us talk about it, right? But, um, yeah, thank you for listening. It's getting late here and, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna call this. One went through the first page, went to the first page. Forty seven thousand dollars. Lee Griffin and I are not satisfied yet. So back to the drawing board of Lee and I's quest to buy an aircraft that we do not want to destroy. It's got by his aircraft all the time, but he just destroys them all right, he would have destroyed every one of these first ones in rapid fashion.
Speaker 1:Absolutely parts them out for a living. Yeah, okay, anyway, thanks for listening. Take care everyone.
Speaker 2:Thanks guys.
Speaker 1:See you, I Keep clicking on the wrong screen because I got. One of them is actual the screen. One of them is just the image of the screen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I totally get. I wouldn't be able to juggle that I.