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A Drinking Podcast; That Sometimes Talks About Airplanes And Learning To Fly. A Private Pilot, A Commercial Pilot And An Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) As Hosts. They Got Board With The FAR AIM Book Years Ago But Are To Lazy To Change The Podcast Name (or do any show prep whatsoever for that matter). Welcome To The Oddest, Most Irreverent And Controversial Pilot Podcast In America.
FAR AIM | Aviation Reg's | Aeronautical Info | FARAIM
Exploring the Universe of Flight Instruction | Guests: Jeff & Hali
Join us for an electrifying conversation with Lake Erie Island's flight legend, Jeff Danevich, a former student of Lee, as we venture through the exhilarating yet nerve-racking universe of flight instruction and solo aviation. This episode is a treasure trove of insights, perspectives, and first-hand anecdotes, making it a must-listen for aspiring pilots, experienced instructors, or just anyone who admires the boundless skies. Our dialogue navigates the enigmatic journey from ground zero to a successful first solo flight, addressing the instructor's apprehensions, illuminating safety protocols, and setting the stage for an unforgettable flight experience.
As part of the journey, we dive into the nitty-gritty of flight lessons, pilot prerequisites, and the financial investment involved in gaining your wings. We throw light on the medical compliance necessary for professional pilots while reflecting on the crucial first 10 hours of training. Not just that, we also explore the myriad of possible repercussions if the medical requirements are not fully understood and adhered to by the students.
Our exploration doesn't stop there! We take our conversation even further by discussing flight instruction strategies, the criticality of lesson planning, and the periodic re-up checks that ensure a continuous learning journey. We touch upon the art of instilling confidence in students, the intricacies of teaching aviation skills, and delve into the dynamic process of student evaluation. Tune in as we bring to life the mesmerizing world of aviation instruction, painting the clear sky with tales of flight and dreams of soaring high!
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Welcome this week's episode of the Far Aim Podcast. Today we have guest Lake Erie Island's flight legend Jeff Denovich, lee's former student, lee's protege. Anything Jeff says, correct or incorrect, you can just blame Lee, for he has a general rule of thumb. We have for the first time my sister on the show. She is filling in for Scott because Scott is not here. She said Scott just drinks and asks Lee frustrating questions. I can try that. That was qualifications to get on the show. We are going to cover this episode taking a student from just. We assume they've walked in the door and they want to take the lessons. Maybe we won't need to go into the sales process so much.
Speaker 2:They're committed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're committed. You, as a CFI, have now got to get this person through a rating. We're just going to focus on to the first solo part for this episode. We're doing this because I'm considering taking some students down in South Florida. If you have availability of an airplane and you're in South Florida, shoot me an email. Consider taking on a handful of students on the side this winter. Yeah, that's kind of a selfish topic for me.
Speaker 2:Self-serving.
Speaker 1:Self-serving topic for me, because that the zero time to first solo is what freaks me out the most about actually using my flight instructor certificate.
Speaker 2:That's where all the meet is. You kind of think about it like once you get them to the solo, you've taught them 90%. It's polishing rough edges and getting the rest of their aeronautical experience requirements done. That's the way I always tried to treat it. I think the majority of your instructing other than checking boxes is done at that solo. I think you're spot on with thinking that's kind of the part that freaks a lot of people out. And then you get them to that first solo and it's like well, I hope this goes well. Did I teach them what they need to know to get safely around this pattern or go solo that airport? That's 25 miles away or whatever.
Speaker 3:Yeah, as an instructor, I think I was more nervous when my students are doing their first solo than I was when I did my first solo.
Speaker 3:I could see that as you get in the plane and it's like here's what I remember really telling me, it's like, all right, it's going to be a little bit different because you're not going to have this weight here or something, I'm like, yeah, I mean, this weight is going to be different. And once you get up in there, you're like I don't have lee to take over the controls if I'm going to land short or if I'm too steep, or so that's all going through your mind. But as nervous as I was doing my solo, I think I'm more as an instructor watch him do their first take off and then come down for the landing, because you're just like, okay, is there something I forgot? You know you got everything, because there's a list that you go through for the pre solo that you're like making sure that they're ready.
Speaker 3:You've had them do a bunch of landings. You've had another instructor go with them just to make sure you didn't miss anything, to make sure that they feel they're ready to. So there's like a safety valve there with the other instructor, but you're still like I said, you're watching them come in and then when they touch down, you're like, okay, fine, so then after that, then you get a little bit more comfortable, but I think I was. I'm more nervous as an instructor when my students doing their first landing as a solo pilot.
Speaker 2:Do you think some of that could be attributed to like you didn't know what you didn't know when you were doing your first solo? Or do you feel like the process? There wasn't enough safeguards there?
Speaker 3:No, no, I think when I when you taught me, and first of all, it can never happen to me. I was taught by Lee, that's like my model there, so we know that's not going to happen. But no, no, you did everything. Well, everything was, was good with the stuff you did. It was just me personally was just like there's no one else for me. That's next to me. You know there is. You know like before there was always that thing. You're right there, so something is wrong. I know, because you got the two, the two yolks there and you've got the rudder pedals.
Speaker 2:I know you can you know, take care of it. But you're saying, though, you're more nervous now as an instructor.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because I'm just I don't you know, like it's okay and like when they go do their their check ride with the examiner.
Speaker 3:You know you don't know what they're going to forget. You know, like you, you've taught them everything, but it's like are they going to forget it? And then when they're doing that solo, you're like, are they good? What if they freeze up? You know what if something happens? I mean, hopefully you've caught that somewhere in the process and you know, like, like you're probably not going to be the person solo. You know, right, and that would be hard to tell someone after they put that money. But hopefully you could see that early on the situation and can say, okay, you know we're going to have to really work hard at this. Here's what's going wrong. You know, let's, let's figure out what we can get you to that solo. But, like I said, once you're up there, you just don't. What if they just all of a sudden just have a lapse of? They just forget?
Speaker 3:you know, I don't know. I mean it hasn't happened. But you know, you just get, I get nervous, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't worry about some sort of emergency or some some sort of thing that's like way out of the norm, just for some reason comes up in those early stages.
Speaker 2:Like a what Like?
Speaker 1:an engine failure, bird strike, bird strike.
Speaker 3:Stuff you know, someone coming in and like a cub that's not talking on the radio and they don't know what to do. So I remember you sent me to Mansfield and I was talking to a tower, tower, tower, tower airport and they said you're clear to land.
Speaker 3:And I was coming in and I saw there was a plane and they actually let's I think I'm trying to give someone took off Some reason. They let someone go at the same time and all I did was like I can't land, I didn't say anything, I just circled on final. They never said anything to me, which was kind of weird too. But I remember that, like my first time going to Mansfield by myself and I I don't even I'm even told leave. This is what happened. But now he knows. But I remember I was coming in and I see this plane. I was just like I can't land. I was always told you know, there's someone on the runway, don't you know, don't land. So you know that's what happened. That's my story.
Speaker 2:And there's no, I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. When you get that clearance to land, you can kind of do whatever you want to make a safe landing. Sure, you know, like you're straight in, you're cleared to land straight in or something like that, so you do have that option. But also there's such a wide range of capabilities of different airplanes coming to land and at Tower Fields they don't know how short you might cut it. Did you do like kind of the power off 180 type approach that I taught you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was probably doing that.
Speaker 2:Probably, and so that means you were in tight and they're not used to that. They're thinking you're going to kind of do a three mile final and it's like, no, you're not going to do that. So it throws everything off and there's such a wide range. I don't think you're off base by treating it like you would a non-towered field.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but like that's what I'm saying, is there's something to come up so that for me, that was mine on that solo cross country was there was a plane. I wasn't used to seeing something like that at a towered airport and I was like, okay, I'm just going to do like a little circle here just to give them some spacing, you know. But yeah, like you said, engine failure, bird strike.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the circle thing or the plane being on the runway after you're cleared, like nowadays we just key the mic, tell the controller. Hey, I see someone on the runway, what's going on here? And it's kind of like a thing. But like as a student, it's like do I say something?
Speaker 3:Like you know what I mean, especially if you're not learning out of a control field like that, and the only thing you do say at the end is I'm a student pilot, you know.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's a story Scott Fulmer you have to, absolutely. Scott still says that when he's on the radio. Student pilot. Okay.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's definitely the unforeseen circumstances. You hope that you've spent enough time with them and kind of caught onto their idiosyncrasies, things like that. But you've kind of done like a psyche vow on them really. I mean, you're wearing a lot of hats when you're doing this and you're letting somebody go, that is true. So you're seeing, like, did they have any? Like maybe underlined, do I have any hints of any? Like unsteadyness, like psychologically? You gotta diagnose all that kind of before you're letting them go.
Speaker 2:And you just start with maneuvers for like the first couple hours, right, it's primarily that's what I, that's typically what I do, but I try to get to take off some landings as quickly as possible. You know, people think you know Same here.
Speaker 3:take off some landings.
Speaker 2:Like somebody like they say oh, I sold it in 10 hours. Like okay, yeah, but if anything came up in those 10 hours, what were you gonna do? Those are the people that I worry about. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm in that boat, scott, and I Don sold us real quick.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you guys were awesome pilots, though, and I'm not, so I took me whatever, how many hours, I know a long time ago. We actually did that.
Speaker 1:If you look at an old episode, we actually broke it down.
Speaker 2:And I don't know how many it was, but I was like double or triple what you guys had, and in not saying that, I would have been equipped to handle something popping up, but at 10 hours there's like no way. Yeah, there's just no way.
Speaker 1:It wasn't our instructor's private 4,000 foot, 150 foot wide grass strip that he knows. No one else is in the pattern of because it's his strip the engine failure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those are the big ones.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I mean some things, some of the tri-motor coming in at like 30 knots, you know super slow. I mean you can see it forever, but it's really.
Speaker 1:I take that back. I learned how to land there, but I actually sold at Port Clinton. I thought I thought Runway Niner yeah.
Speaker 2:I thought I remember you telling me that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Now the time and place and those times were different at Port Clinton. It was a lot slower at Port Clinton then than it is now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was March 16th, it was winter time, relatively slow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what 2007?
Speaker 1:This would have been 2005. 2005, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3:Different times, I mean that place is a nut house compared to that, but Look at there we got someone that busted Denver Brava on his first cross country solo.
Speaker 1:That's the spirit.
Speaker 3:There you go. I don't feel so bad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it happens. I mean those are just things like.
Speaker 1:I'd be curious the circumstances. Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, give us elaboration details please.
Speaker 3:I did bust Newark's Bravo when I first time in New York City. I was leaving there, I was landing in Linden, or take off from Linden. There's like a really small ceiling there and I just I think it was like 800 feet or something like that you had to cross. You had to cross some buildings. From whatever I was taking off, I was like I can get over these buildings. I was even paying attention at 800 feet.
Speaker 1:So I made a NASA report.
Speaker 3:And here I am.
Speaker 1:NASA report how early.
Speaker 2:at least you did one how?
Speaker 1:early do you teach the NASA report?
Speaker 2:I never taught the NASA report. If they found out about that, it wasn't for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things that I did not even cause. I didn't understand, like I mean, I guess I got it, but I didn't know how to. Where would you find that to fill it out?
Speaker 3:Like I didn't know any of that I have to say with Lee's style was more I'm going to show you how to fly, I'm going to teach you how to fly. You know what I'm saying? And then it was.
Speaker 3:I'm not my no means cutting down on you, cause like I said you taught me an awesome skill level, like, hey, I'm going to teach you how to fly. The rest of the stuff you're going to have to find out pretty much on your own, you know. And it was basically saying hey, I could sit here and help you read all this stuff, but you're going to pay me for it, or I'm going to send you how you can read this, but in the meantime we're going to spend all this time teaching you the skills to fly the plane.
Speaker 1:Do it correctly, you know so yeah, so Halle, let's say Halle booked you for Saturday, sunday, like an hour. Saturday hour Sunday, first two lessons. What are you covering, like?
Speaker 3:so the first one, and this is I would start it like Lee said, it was kind of starting a review process. I remember Lee doing this. Pay attention now, what do you want to do? Do you want are you just here? Do you just want to fly the airplane? Do you want to just solo, or do you want to become a private pilot, commercial pilot, which I take on to my students? The thing that I've added since then is have you taken any ADHD medication prior? Because I've or coke no no.
Speaker 3:The reason for that? The reason for that is before you can solo, you have to get your medical.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I've seen students that I picked up from other instructors that I get them all the way up there. You know they've had, like, let's say, 10 hours and they want to get there, they want to solo. So I'm like, okay, let's go through your medical process, let's get you your medical. Oh, I take an Adderall or something like that and they're like disqualified, so they can't get it. So now they put all this time to get to the solo and they weren't able to.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:So that's like they have to go through a bunch of stuff, but that's God. I know one person right now is like two years into it that they haven't been able to get their medical, so they haven't been able to solo.
Speaker 3:And this is someone I picked up from someone else. So that's one of the first questions is you know, after I ask you, what do you want to do? Do you just want to learn how to fly? Do you just want to do this? Because I just want to put on my bucket list that, hey, I was able to solo. So now you're just going to work strictly on the whole soloing stuff.
Speaker 3:But if they're saying, hey, I want to make this a career, then you're like, okay, Well, even the same thing you're going to ask about, you know, did they take any medication that could possibly just qualify for that stuff? So then the next thing we get onto, then I'm going to go okay, here's the airplane, and we're going to go over and we're going to do some. I'm just going to show you this stuff. Here's the ailerons. This is what the yolk does. If you turn, turn it to the right, what's going to happen? Turn it to the left, you know. So you turn to the right, you know the ailerons are going to come up. Then, left, the other side is going to go down. That's going to help us turn in the air.
Speaker 3:What the rudders do on the ground, what they do in the air go everything and just we'll go over all the instruments as we're singing the plane, because then once the engine started, that's when everything. So then the first thing we're going to do is we're going to do a takeoff and landing. We're probably going to do a power 180 off, because I'm going to show you like, listen, you know, and this is one of the things that Lee taught me was always, we're going to do the power 180 off landing. And it may sound weird, but I remember when I was partnered in a Cherokee 180, a couple of my partners in the plane. I flew with them and they wanted to do their, their, their biennial, and I was like okay. I was like we're going to do a power 180 off Biennial, why not? I didn't agree. Why I wasn't there when they changed the wording. Why should I? Why should I have to do?
Speaker 1:it. That's how.
Speaker 2:I think about it Exactly you started your flight and all your training after they already changed it.
Speaker 3:No, I didn't. Yes, you did. No, I didn't. I don't think so. Well, how did I get, how did I get, biennial?
Speaker 2:Because that's what everybody says, because you're still like stuck on that, there you go.
Speaker 1:Why change it?
Speaker 3:We don't like it all the closer. First time on Okay.
Speaker 2:Anyway, when did, when did you start flight training?
Speaker 3:Well, what were you doing?
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:Continue, okay, so anyway. So I was taught the 180. So I would do this with them while they're buying, and you know what? I'm not changing it for you and they couldn't do it, they did not know how to do it. But the reason for teaching 180 is like, hey, if you lose your, you lose power to your engine. This plane's gonna glide. And now it's gonna teach you that. I kind of you kind of get used to it, like how far can I actually go on this plane gliding? So we're gonna do that and, like I said, her first lesson, the first two lessons, are gonna be takeoffs and landings, and then from there maybe we'll do a few maneuvers.
Speaker 1:How you do. You wanna learn for fun or to become a professional pilot?
Speaker 2:That would be some of the first questions he'd be asking, though. Oh yeah, for fun, for fun, and like by fun, oh, you can ask. Actually, I wanna know how long do you have to be off medication?
Speaker 1:to Well, like I said, it's a few years.
Speaker 3:It's a few years, like I said, cause I think what they have to do is and I'm not a hundred percent sure on this one, but I think you have to be out that medication, and then you have to. You know it's, you're on that medication for a reason, but you have to be off it so you can show like you can get your license. You know, once you get your license, once you get your license, you gotta still stay off of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know it. That's so convoluted with the medical stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I was advised by attorneys just to never talk about medical stuff on the show.
Speaker 3:Really.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, cause it's. It's impossible not to step your step. Step in a turn.
Speaker 3:I guess yeah, but still, I mean. So the vice is just yeah, that would be the first thing. We added. One of the things I said, like do you want to do for fun? And then I would ask him about the whole medication thing, cause you don't want to put all that money into it to get to that solo. You know, like we said, even if it's 10 hours, what are we talking there? About $200 an hour, so you're talking two grand. Just to get to the point, let's say you made it to that 10 hours and it's like okay, let's get your solo.
Speaker 3:Oh, we got to fill out your medical. Take a medication. Oh yeah, take this. Oh, you're not going to be getting that medical. So now they just wasted two grand, yeah, so.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. Flying for fun versus flying like wanting to do a living, what's the difference Like for the first five hours, with how you're handling that?
Speaker 2:I need James P Gray MD. Can you email me? I got I got some medical questions. I need to talk to you about somebody I know.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, dr Gray, he's on a pilot ground.
Speaker 2:Okay, great, you just got it Email me. I wish I knew what my email was. Do you know what my email is, rob?
Speaker 1:F-A-R-A-M at leagueriffingcom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's it. Yeah, email me.
Speaker 1:He's on pilot ground too, just message him.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, maybe I'll do that then, but I don't know what his username is on pilot ground.
Speaker 1:Wish I had Dr Gray on.
Speaker 2:Probably. Yeah, it'd probably be good to have an AME on. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But we might have to line this up. I'm not trying to derail the subject, but I'm just like I'm trying to keep up with what's going on here.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, exactly. I know where to find those. I know where to find those.
Speaker 1:Performance enhancements. Performance enhancements yes, what Lee?
Speaker 2:what Lee's being accused of possibly being Is it okay to double dose, and which ones are safe?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's three to six months, but all I know is the one guy who is two years so far and he still hasn't. Like I said, I don't know, who knows, maybe he doesn't.
Speaker 2:Maybe he hasn't AMEs and just how all that paperwork is written and their individual case and other aspects of their medical history. It's, I mean, it's hard, so I mean.
Speaker 3:Well, that Matt's waiting for his check, right? So good luck with that. Yeah, good luck with that, Matt.
Speaker 2:That was kind of way up. I'm glad we could get you back into it. I hope we've helped in some way and obviously you guys can help steer the conversation as we get into this. But what else have we missed, I guess? But so in the five you were talking about, in the five hours, Like the first five hours.
Speaker 1:You're asking like, okay, are you trying to become a professional? Is, how are you trying to become a professional?
Speaker 2:pilot. Hopefully that's done in the first conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But I'm asking, like those first five hours now, based off of what that answer is, is there any differences in like how you're teaching and stuff in those first five hours? Let's call it our first 10 hours?
Speaker 2:I think so.
Speaker 1:Versus, like how he wants to learn how to fly for fun in our hypothetical situation here.
Speaker 2:I think, so what do you think?
Speaker 1:Versus somebody who just wants like their gung-ho on three pilot.
Speaker 2:The first, probably 10 hours is probably the most critical differences in how I would handle that.
Speaker 1:Is it gung-ho or gung-ho?
Speaker 2:Gung-ho. I'm pretty sure it's gung-ho, okay, but I don't know.
Speaker 1:I didn't mean to derail it too much there.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I don't know. I think, everyone's helped him since, except Scott.
Speaker 1:Okay, we'll let him know. Well, you're filling in for Scott, so you don't have to really help anybody. You just kind of. I'm much more motivating, though, having some drinks.
Speaker 3:I mean you haven't said anything to lead to irritate him yet, so you're kind of failing right now.
Speaker 2:I'll try, just think it's not, it won't be. It shouldn't be hard, it shouldn't be hard. Well, jeff already did with the flight or the Bineal flight review.
Speaker 3:Still Bineal yeah.
Speaker 1:So we have a Bineal flying pre-cosh. We got to just to bring that lingo back. I'm going to make sure that's on the that's big on the T-shirt.
Speaker 2:The next T-shirt okay.
Speaker 3:Is it called a flight review?
Speaker 2:It's a flight review. Cause they went from the every two years to every 24 calendar months. That doesn't work for me, dude.
Speaker 3:Which is Bineal.
Speaker 2:No, it's not, they're different ones. By the end of the month, once to the day. Every two years to the day.
Speaker 3:Two years is how many months?
Speaker 2:two calendar years is 24 calendar months.
Speaker 1:So it's by annual.
Speaker 2:No, it's not. It's not, but it was different.
Speaker 3:Never agree, todd, so let's change it.
Speaker 1:Look the difference between the first five to ten hours and how you're instructing some of them.
Speaker 2:I think those are the critical differences.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what are the differences?
Speaker 2:Do you agree or no?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's critical.
Speaker 2:I just think like those are the first ones, though, the first five to ten hours.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's where I think the critical differences are how I handle it versus how, depending on whether they're going to be pleasure or I want to go be an airline pilot.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:No, like it. Yeah, there's no wrong answer.
Speaker 3:No, I'm just trying to wrap my head what I'm trying to think. Do you want me to talk? Yes, I'd like you to talk, please. I just want to be the student.
Speaker 2:If somebody comes in and they're like I've always wanted to fly, I now, like my kids are out of college, I now have that money available and I can go pursue my dream. But I don't want to be a commercial pilot. This is just fun for me. We're going to go into whatever they think is fun. That's what we're going to do.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I don't want. If that's maneuvers they want to go do. I'm going to turn it into kind of turns around a point which is a is that a performance? What is that? What is that called? Not a performance maneuver, that's a ground reference maneuver.
Speaker 3:Ground reference.
Speaker 2:Not performance.
Speaker 3:I concur.
Speaker 2:But there's, thank you, roger. Roger, I'm going to let them do that around their house or around their boat at the marina, or whatever they're going to do. I'm going to let them, I'm going to try and give them some something to do while they're still enjoying. They're looking out the window and I'm just going to be like, oh, watch the bank angle, watch the altitude, and just kind of throw that in there and let them just slowly build those skills. I just want them to keep enjoying and keep coming back. That's how I'm paid, that's how they enjoy. Everybody wins.
Speaker 2:So you come in and you say, well, I'm 18 years old and I want to be an airline pilot. It's like, okay, we're going to start with ground reference maneuvers, turns, s turns across the road, but I don't care where your house is, we're going to go over the straightest, longest road we can and we're going to knock out S turns across the road and we're going to do boring stuff. But we, I want to get your scan going and making sure it's instrumenty while sticking ruddery as much as possible. But it's boring stuff. So some people like Jeff and I, remember a day specifically we're out doing, we're over at Portland, which has a 5,600 foot runway and our home airport has 3,500 foot runway. We're over there doing like just take Austin land. He's just banging them out. And I gave you an engine failure about midfield. I don't know if you remember or not. You probably don't remember.
Speaker 2:I don't remember it's well yeah, yeah, maybe you will after, after I'm done with the story. But we're like midfield, so you have like 2,500 feet more to where even at the end of the runway, and you're like not going to make the end of the runway and touch on a threshold of all. And so I was just like, dude, just put it on the pavement and dude, you cranking bank, and we turn final at like 30 feet and we landed like that's what I want to learn.
Speaker 3:That's what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:You want to do stick and rudder stuff and like there's no way to really feel somebody out for what they want to get out of it accurately. Like they may want to get something out they don't know that they want to get out of it when they come into the door. So you were a stick and rudder guy Like you wanted to like main, handle an airplane and flying 40 knots winds.
Speaker 3:You wanted to do all that, and that's why you're doing that. That's why I like flying the islands and not Exactly yeah, that's why I don't want to.
Speaker 2:So you wanted that from day one and there's no way that I could have asked that sitting in the office. You know when you came in.
Speaker 3:I may not have known that when he started and there's no way for me to know that if he doesn't even know that I don't know where it was in our lesson, but I do remember one time you did, you banked us over at Sundaski and at the time it had had been low time for me because I was like, oh my God, we're not going to, we're going to die here. You know I'm thinking at the time. But now, look at now that you know I've flown for I think I got like 2600 hours now it's like, okay, those are not really that steep of bank. But at that time that's the one thing with students too, you're not going to, you want to start them out slowly. You know, you don't want to get into like the steep. I wouldn't personally get into steep turns too early just because you don't want them to.
Speaker 3:Night time is another thing is. I remember when me and you did our first night time, I was like I never want to fly at night. I'm moving to Alaska where it's not a requirement, you know. So I'm thinking but now, I'd love flying at night because I can see everything. But at the time I was like what, if something happens, where am I going to land? You know so.
Speaker 2:I still hate that stuff in a single engineer plane. I mean, I still hate that, yeah, so, yeah.
Speaker 3:So there's just things you know you just want to build that. You're trying to build like building blocks, build that confidence up, you know, to get them to that solo, you know. And then what hurdles do you have to get over? What are? You know the death grip you ever get a person with that. You know they're like, yeah, they had. They're like tight on that, yeah, and they won't turn. He's like, okay, look just like. And you show them they're like, look, I'm just using like two fingers here to turn this plane. You don't need that death grip there. You know so. So you trust as. And then, as you see it, you see them like kind of, you know, oh, they're loosening up on their grip. All their landings are starting to get a lot better. You know all. They finally got it.
Speaker 2:They finally figured out when you know, yeah, yeah, and that takes time as an instructor too, it does For you to really start being able to sample different people's personality and things like that and their learning style. I mean that that's.
Speaker 3:That is true.
Speaker 2:That's one of the harder part. You're going to learn more as an instructor than than you will doing any other rating or certificate. But Landings.
Speaker 1:How do I do that? Like that freaks me out. The first landings, and then I feel like they seem like they could do it for a while and then they, like you, start to let your guard down and all of a sudden they regress.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, you just got to be on it. You just got to be on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then that ability, gaining that ability to let them mess it up enough where, but but you can.
Speaker 2:You can still jump in there and fix it, and that just takes time to build that you got to see and you got to be able to kind of project out where they're going to be the aircraft state in a period of time Like that. Just energy management, that's something you're going to acquire. It's just something you're going to acquire over time.
Speaker 3:And then when they do that first solo, you're going to do a couple of landings with them that day and you're looking for that perfect day for them to do those landings. So you just look for that perfect day to get those three landings take off. Some landings in yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Obviously that first solo is so nerve wracking because like did I teach them enough? Just like the check ride.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Did I teach them everything they need to know for this day? You're hoping somebody doesn't come in the pattern. You're hoping the King Air doesn't rip into the pattern and throw everything off, and all these island guys who don't care about anything. Right bases, long finals, short finals.
Speaker 3:Allegedly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right. Well, I didn't say you did it. I know you follow all the rules.
Speaker 3:I do. I'll stop by later. You can't happen to me.
Speaker 2:But I mean, yeah, it's nerve wracking, but I think so. Like just going back, so we've isolated pleasure flying, and then I guess like what would the next Mm hmm, what's that gate be like, the next thing that we are considering beyond? You know, do you have an aspiration? Like what, do you want to buy an airplane? You're gonna rent an airplane, like things like that. So, like the decision tree, we start just navigating like how, although maybe it's just pleasure, but are what are?
Speaker 2:you gonna use the? What are you Gonna use it for? Yeah, yeah, I mean that's. I mean, it's very much a subset.
Speaker 3:Or are you gonna use it, or are you just gonna get in? Just let it do nothing with it? I've seen that a lot.
Speaker 1:That's true, where they'll get that? Just a buy list thing, just to get the rating.
Speaker 3:They'll get the rating and then they just let it lapse and they just don't do anything. Yeah, it's like you spend all that time and money. It's like, hey, you know, you try to tell them, like, figure something out. You know, take that, you know, at least once or twice a year, do something with it. You know it's an adventure just go it's like a passport just to go places that other people haven't gone, to do things.
Speaker 1:I did that with the CFI. I just I got all the ratings and then just stopped.
Speaker 2:Yeah, people do that with the private more often than that.
Speaker 1:Well, you have a fanatone for a little bit there and do another stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I mean you have it a little bit of a plan, but you know you just kind of drop, I mean let go of it. You know, so and I mean whatever people do that all the time with the private.
Speaker 3:So I mean, did you let it go completely, or did you?
Speaker 2:Oh, I have a CFI still. Oh, you do, you renews it.
Speaker 3:yeah, I renew it yeah, god, could you just imagine someone that had it and just let it lapse.
Speaker 1:Oh, ted had to go through all that check, right, yeah, okay, I didn't know it wasn't an idiot.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Who would do that? Don't worry.
Speaker 3:I stepped in for you on that one. Okay, that's kind of stuff Scott would do.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, I mean I yeah, no, here we are. I haven't had a lapse again, so at least it's easy if I check right twice, and you were double.
Speaker 1:I too, right yeah. Oh man, not the MEI, though.
Speaker 2:No, Okay, I was gonna do that actually, like about four years ago, I was gonna start that up, but I didn't even do a lesson. I got the like the binder, the books, like for the airplane. I never didn't even do a single lesson.
Speaker 1:Man.
Speaker 2:One day maybe.
Speaker 1:You can fly multi, though I just feel like you'd be terrified compared to, like, jumping in a piston.
Speaker 2:multi now versus all the turbine time you have, Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 3:Oh, don't let him fall. He goes appealing all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but a piston multi that would oh, a piston multi okay, piston singles. One thing I know what's happening if that ended fail, that piston multi happens getting all those knobs forward and all the stuff like no, thanks, no thanks.
Speaker 1:What are you doing? The layer?
Speaker 2:Now you just.
Speaker 3:He's got autopilot, he doesn't need all that stuff.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, I get on an engine field. I get the autopilot on about as soon as I can, but it won't engage if you're all like going crazy.
Speaker 3:Is there another pilot with you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but they're not doing anything.
Speaker 3:There you go, it's not the same.
Speaker 2:They're not doing anything. They're doing call outs and stuff, yeah nothing. And you leave the both thrust levers full forward. The engine is not making thrust, isn't making thrust, but you're just holding them because you don't want to diagnose, like right now. It's not like a multi, or every second a piston or propeller, whatever a prop airplane, it's not critical, it's just gonna continue.
Speaker 1:You limit a deli climate. 3,000 feet per minute with one engine probably.
Speaker 2:No 1,000, only 1,000.
Speaker 3:That's it wow.
Speaker 2:So is the solo based on hours or?
Speaker 1:experience. What's that Fantastic?
Speaker 3:You're okay, once you can solo one person.
Speaker 2:That's a great question. It is what do you think?
Speaker 3:No, it's not. So here's the thing when you're teaching and there's multiple instructors and multiple students, the students start to talk and they're like, well, I did mine in like 10 hours, and that other person starts well, hey, this guy didn't tell me how come I can't. It's like, well, one, maybe I teach a little bit differently or two, your skill, your learning level. So I would just say you're gonna be ready when you feel comfortable, cause there's times where I thought I felt comfortable with the students solo and they just didn't want, they didn't feel, they just didn't have that confidence that I had in them and it was just one of those things, a hurdle they had to get over. So it would. I would basically say, listen, I really can't give you a definite number.
Speaker 3:We're gonna work here together, we're gonna we're gonna get this done, but it's gonna be when I feel you're safe, and when you feel you're safe is the best answer. But this is the problem with, like I said, multiple instructors in the same company and multiple students and they start talking and they start comparing, like you know this person, how come I'm not soloing in 10 hours? And like we I think we discussed this earlier it's like, yeah, you can solo in 10 hours. Is it the best thing? I don't know, If something goes wrong, they're gonna want to look back and see why did this guy solo in 10 hours? And you know, I'm sure in those 10 hours that instructor covered everything, checked all the boxes and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:But if I ever had a student that was like, why am I not soloing in 10 hours? I'd be like, cause you didn't go to Don Mather, and as your instructor you went to me so that's.
Speaker 3:I don't have my luck. I went I can't remember I mine definitely wasn't 10 with Lee.
Speaker 2:Mine wasn't 10,. Mine wasn't 10 either.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:I feel, like as a CFI, potentially teaching somebody I wouldn't like.
Speaker 2:It's terrifying. You're probably gonna have some more hours than that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to be comfortable putting my signature and my CFI number in your logbook for you to go. Do that.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah, it is. I mean, I can't picture a scenario where 10 hours is enough.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, unless they have like ultralight, like a bunch of ultralight flying, and they have some other stuff off the books and it's like. You're like, oh, you know all this stuff.
Speaker 3:See, I had a student that she had her helicopter rating. So I don't think it was within 10 hours that she soloed, but it was pretty close to that. But she also had, like I said, a helicopter, so she had a lot of the stuff down already, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So she understood some things.
Speaker 2:Right, totally.
Speaker 1:And Scott and I would go up all the time with the old guys as kids out of 80 Delta and they'd let us shoot Like we weren't logging. At that time we weren't really old enough to be taking lessons or anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But like we had a feel for it, like when we started.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that they might have helped towards your 10 hours too, that you were able to. You know, do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So cause you had that stuff?
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it all helps.
Speaker 1:The whole process just seems daunting to me.
Speaker 2:And I don't know if it's a more daunting. That's one thing that like I wish. I mean there's a bunch of things I regret in my instructing career, but one of the things I wish I would have done better, or maybe more consistently, was just keeping them have the regs out. This is what we need to satisfy. You are here Like we have checked these boxes, and you are here and make sure they are just intimately aware of what all is required. So there's like just no, it's just transparent to them. You know you talked about it in that like initial sit down meeting, like what the requirements are about, how much it's gonna cost, but then, once you start going in there, you know doling out a thousand bucks a week or whatever it is to get things done, get through it.
Speaker 3:So I had a notebook. So for every my students I would always write down what I taught on that day, cause you have to, you know, keep the records of. You know you keep in your log book that you flew with that person, but I would keep, like more detailed logs in there and at the very front of their page. I would have, you know, three hours a nighttime, across country time. They needed 10 hours. You know the solo. I had all that stuff and I would check it off. We did steep turns.
Speaker 3:You know I've had all the requirements that they would have to have for their private and I would check it off so that they would see it too, like, okay, here's what we need to get, here's where we're at right now. You know, and this is what we're gonna go, and I would give you know you'd have out gosh, now I'll get in my blank. I was like a syllabus of here's what we're gonna cover. So part 61, you don't have to go ABCD, you know you could skip around if someone's stuck on something, you can. Okay, let's skip over this and let's, let's get this and we'll, we'll circle back to that and we'll figure it out. But so I would show them like okay, here's where we need to get and here's what we're. You know we're gonna fall this stuff down here, and you know. So that way in there, they knew that there was a plan there for them, you know.
Speaker 1:What are you not covering for the solo Like what are you, what are you?
Speaker 3:just so there's gonna, what would you?
Speaker 1:just obviously cross country stuff I know is not being covered.
Speaker 3:Well, to be honest, it's been like two years since I've had a student I took from, you know, from like the beginning on. But there is a pre-soul test that they're gonna take and that's gonna go over that, over that plane. You're gonna basically have a test on stuff. They need to know about that. What kind of plane are they flying? So for our guys it would be an archer. Okay, how much fuel can you carry? How much fuel are you gonna burn? How much fuel do you carry? What's the weight and balance of that plane? You go over weight and balance because you know you're trying yeah, sure, the archer and all those guys are forgiving, especially they're soloing. You know it's like, okay, I can carry a full amount of fuel and you know, get off the ground and wherever, and we're gonna be safe, what the crosswind max is and things like that. So you're gonna give a pre-solo test. I honestly don't have one in front of me to reference it.
Speaker 1:And that's just something you, as a CFI, make.
Speaker 3:Well, no, I'm pretty it's required. Well, you make it as yes, you do make it as a CFI, but it's also part of at least for us, it's part of the requirement that they have to have that because you don't want them to get up in the plane and they're like well, I didn't know I needed fuel. You know something stupid like that? Right, I didn't know I needed six quarts of oil and I thought I could fly with two quarts of oil. You know Things like that, just like minor things that you're gonna go over with them on a pre-solo.
Speaker 2:Yeah, pre-solo knowledge test is required.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I'm sorry it is required because it's on actually when you sign it in their logbook that they took a pre-solo test. Knowledge test, yeah, Knowledge test, yeah.
Speaker 2:His Dave. The flight school has generated the flight. That one for you. That's not you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, your own test no.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean, yeah, you wanna have a sample knowledge of things that may be pertinent. Like this is, you know, not so much like solo cross country. This is bare minimum. There's maybe a little bit at solo cross country. In my opinion, that's when I would tell a student like, hey, go ahead and start really getting serious about your written. You know, I am about to let you go fly 50 miles, which may as well be 1500 miles. So as far as you're concerned, at this stage, so like now, you should know if I'm about to let you solo cross country, you should have, for the most part, all the piece, Unless I've kinda neglected something, you should have all the pieces in mind. You should be pretty well rounded.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:At the solo cross.
Speaker 3:So you guys make your own curriculum, or are there FAA requirements?
Speaker 2:Well, there are. So we have some guidelines. There's part one to 41 schools and the school's gonna develop their own curriculum. It will be approved or accepted by the FAA. And then part 61, they just kinda give you a very general outline of the things you need to cover.
Speaker 3:You need to cover yeah.
Speaker 2:And not necessarily how you cover it. It's not like lesson by lesson. As long as you get it before they take their check ride, that's good enough. Well, so that's a lot easier for the average person. You know they can learn at their own pace. They don't have to redo. A lesson Like 141 is good for college kids College age kids, where they're like programmed to learn and stuff but for the general population, per 61 seems to be a much better answer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so when we took our CFA, we all had to make our own lesson plans. Yeah, you had to make your own lesson plans on. And then the examiner would say all right, teach me something on steep turns, you know. So I had these lesson plans that I spent I don't know days making and we went weeks yeah, days, weeks, whatever.
Speaker 3:And then I remember when I was teaching at Burke FAA, someone from FAA came in and they're like this is after I had my CFA and they took two of us and they says I want you to teach me this, so we taught him that. Then he goes look, don't even worry about that. He goes go to. He's had us go to ASA. And he says use these lesson plans. It covers everything. He was right, it had white stuff for whiteboards on there. They had videos, it was all. It was crazy. But like this guy came in, so you guys did a good job, but I'm gonna make your life easier, so it worked out.
Speaker 3:Somebody has already invented the wheel, the wheel, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:They just want to see that you basically have the. You're able to teach something.
Speaker 1:I think, though, if anybody up there looking to get your CFI, it is beneficial to go through it yourself and make those own lesson plans, because it forces you to really just break everything down way further than you would otherwise, even if you never use the lesson plans the exercise of making them, I think, is very beneficial.
Speaker 2:That's what you learn is, when you're responsible for teaching somebody else, you get that next level deeper, several levels deeper than you would just understanding yourself. When you are responsible for teaching it, you just get a much deeper understanding, I think.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's what that is somewhat designed to maybe show.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Jared Johnson's in this chat. I wonder if he I know he was getting his CFI.
Speaker 3:Robert just wants people to feel the pain. Yep, I agree.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I had to do it. You guys got to do it too, but um.
Speaker 2:I had to do it twice.
Speaker 1:You have to do the lessons plans twice.
Speaker 2:No, I didn't even make me do the lesson plans. Okay, because I already held it once, so I don't know if that's wrong or not.
Speaker 1:What did you have to do for a re-up Check?
Speaker 2:right, Um, we did a short oral and then we yeah, the actual check right did all the maneuvers.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I think I think it was Jack Cochran said he let his laps and had to do it and he was just. Of course, I forget the comedy. Maybe he's like, yeah, it's like he didn't even study for it.
Speaker 2:I'm sure he didn't. He just like, yeah, astrophysicist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I think you can just choose one of the CFIs you have right and do the check ride for that, and it reinstates all of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think he just he's like yeah, I just did it, I just did a multi. That was the easiest for me. Just read my MEI and that activated everything else. I'm like he didn't even study for it. I think it was Cochran or somebody else did that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sounds like a Cochran thing but so still terrifies me though. I mean there's a lot, but I mean, how do you eat an elephant right? One bite at a time. So it's like you got to start somewhere and we've kind of covered that initial dialogue, getting a feel for what they want, and then that's going to evolve what they want to do with it.
Speaker 3:So, rob, did you ever work as a CFI? I mean other than your sister's one lesson that never got her into playing.
Speaker 1:Yes and no. I've gotten jobs as a CFI.
Speaker 3:Okay, have you ever had a student? That you sold.
Speaker 1:The places I was got hired at. I was just you just kind of had to hang out there all day and wait for a student to come in, and it drove me insane. I just I stopped going in.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of common. That sounds about right yeah.
Speaker 1:So I did the interviews and stuff with one school.